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Cryptography experts trash NFTs on first day of RSA Conference

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Re: Cryptography experts trash NFTs on first day of RSA Conference

#131
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's another thing you're missing: First Sale Doctrine. In the world of physical goods, once you've sold a copy of something, you have no rights whatsoever to constrain what people can do with that copy. Authors don't see a dime for used book sales, for example.

But the IRS still gets a perpetual royalty on every subsequent sale. Why can't the producer?

Because "the IRS" (not sure which jurisdiction you're in, but here in the US, it's actually the local and state government) is an entity controlled by elections that is obligated to spend its budget in ways decided on by elections, and therefore can reasonably exist forever. The royalties are not for the benefit of the IRS. A state or local government is sort of like an offline DAO, if you're familiar with DAOs. A producer does not live forever, and the producer's heirs get to spend things as they see fit.

Also, in many cases, the local government does not get a royalty on every sale - certain sales, such as to non-profits, do not get taxed.

Re: Cryptography experts trash NFTs on first day of RSA Conference

#132

I don't mean to distract from the main conversation, but I want to talk about how insidiously evil it is that NFTs can be coded to send the original creator a percentage $ cut off of every subsequent transaction for all time. If that's not hard coding wealth inequality and a new class of asset owners, I don't know what is. This is disturbing, along with the whole thing itself anyway. Imagine if cryptocurrency started…

compare it to what actually exists in the mainstream not some dark fears of possible dystopias ...

Re: Cryptography experts trash NFTs on first day of RSA Conference

#133
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Imagine if cryptocurrency started doing that? Isn't this essentially what proof of steak is? A tax on all transactions proportional to how much you already own, but disproportionately applied to smaller users. That last bit is key. Speaking of Ethereum for a second - the largest asset owners will be institutions which can transact off-chain, which means that fees are being payed more often by folks that don't have t…

First we had proof of work, and it consumed all the world's processing power. Then we had proof of space, and it consumed all the world's data storage. Then we had proof of steak, and it consumed all the world's food. Thus ended humanity.

First we had gold, and the Spanish looted the New World to acquire it and found themselves no richer. Then we had real estate mortgages and used deeds to estates instead of gold, and the speculators wrote up intangible asset prices as high as possible to get more money from central banks. Then we had digital gold, and no one used it because money is credit and no one wanted to pay excessive interest to internet goldbugs.

Ideally we would recognize that issuing money is a collective problem and attempt to fix our public money system, which is based on real estate mortgages.

We can fix it by recognizing that when a home has a fixed capital replacement cost of $150,000 and broker has written the comparable sales price up to $400,000 that it is not necessary to publicly guarantee the mortgages at the comparable sales price of $400,000 only the $150,000. Or to at least cap the public mortgage guarantees at double the replacement cost ($300,000) whenever the comparable sales price ($400,000) is greater.

It perhaps goes against libertarian sensibilities to claim that if the labor and material cost of the replacing all of the structures, fixtures, equipment, appliances conveyed with an estate is $150,000 and the comparable sales prices of $400,000 that the estate has 'intrinsic value' of $150,000 rather than just subjective value of $400,000. But with federally backed mortgages the $400,000 is not a long run competitive market value, it is a number which a specific set of brokers and banks have fixed upon which the central bank then commits to backing regardless of how they pick it.

Requiring loans which expand legal tender to be issued on at least half security of the replacement cost of non-obsolete fixed capital would be a reasonable short term reform to stabilize the public money system in case private crypto money doesn't work out.

Re: Cryptography experts trash NFTs on first day of RSA Conference

#134
post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree, I don't think it has a place. It's useless.

I said this elsewhere, but Uniswap V3 liquidity positions are NFTs. Are those NFTs useless?

You mean for money laundering? No I guess not?

Re: Cryptography experts trash NFTs on first day of RSA Conference

#135
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would take a broader bet that is not tied to Beeple (i.e. that NFTs of significant artists will have long-term value in a similar manner as a painting).

I would take that broader bet that NFTs will have zero long-term value.

Explain why -

Is this because you don't have interest in it, or do you have a true justification of this?

I'm willing to take this bet. Just like art, 99% can be bought for $1 at a garage sale, but there will be the 1% that has value to someone.

You are betting against the generation who spends massive amounts on video games costumes, and puts more value into their online image (instagram) than real life image, not finding value in a form of digital scarcity & status. I find that hard to believe.

Re: Cryptography experts trash NFTs on first day of RSA Conference

#136
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In most legitimate uses of NFTs the creator is the artist.

How would you know if an NFT is legitimate? There's no "legitimate" bit on the NFT that distinguishes it. If you wanted to support the artist, wouldn't it be faster, easier, cheaper, and more reliable to support them directly, through Patreon or something similar?

I guess the buck stops at Blue Checkmark providers really.

Re: Cryptography experts trash NFTs on first day of RSA Conference

#137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are we about to come full circle to Mt Gox?

Magic the Gathering...

For others’ benefit, Mt Gox (of Bitcoin fraud fame) was originally “Magic The Gathering Online eXchange”.

Re: Cryptography experts trash NFTs on first day of RSA Conference

#138
post #68

I was really hoping they were going to dunk on the technology itself, like how the media of the NFT is lost if the platform hosting it is ever compromised - only the meta data is stored on the blockchain. Instead, they just attacked the contents of the NFTs, akin to my mom telling me my pokemon cards are a waste of money all those years ago. Value is only whatever someone is willing to pay.

It's important to remember that these people are also the kind of industry personalities that would speak at and participate in a conference run by an organization in 2004 that backdoored their crypto products for government bribes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_EC_DRBG

I'm of the belief now that those associated with the RSA conference are more interested in the publicity/reach of the conference than anything technical. They've pretty firmly positioned themselves outside of technology and far up the orifice of "industry" now. Maybe it's worth watching for policy wonks, but I skip the whole thing.

Re: Cryptography experts trash NFTs on first day of RSA Conference

#139

I don't mean to distract from the main conversation, but I want to talk about how insidiously evil it is that NFTs can be coded to send the original creator a percentage $ cut off of every subsequent transaction for all time. If that's not hard coding wealth inequality and a new class of asset owners, I don't know what is. This is disturbing, along with the whole thing itself anyway. Imagine if cryptocurrency started…

I have never heard this take before, you actually think it's evil? Insidiously so? I honestly can't even conceive of what your argument is.

First off, the facts are a bit off, NFTs cannot currently contain hardcoded royalties (or whatever you call it). Right now it is voluntarily paid by the marketplaces that sell NFTs. But I think at some point it will evolve to be guaranteed. Sort of.

But either way, if it's all transparent, then why is it evil? Maybe it acts as a deterrent of sales in the future, but I like that it can be controlled by the creator. It's everyone else's choice on whether to buy it, or whether that constitutes ownership. If you don't like it, don't buy it.

Evil? Really? I don't get it at all. Not one single iota. But, willing to hear your argument for that. "Hardcoding wealth inequality" is hardly an argument. It's not like there are a ton of people creating a new superclass of rich artists. There are a few, but that isn't the way it will shake out long term. At least, any more than traditional art.

Is all wealth inherently evil to you? Maybe that's your argument? I guess that's it?

On your "imagine if cryptocurrency started doing that", I am sure there are cases where this happens. ZCash is one where 10% of mined blocks go back to the original investors and founding team. Not sure how I feel about that, I do think it's high, but I certainly don't think it's evil. If people don't like it, they won't use it, and something will take its place. No biggie.

Re: Cryptography experts trash NFTs on first day of RSA Conference

#140
post #131
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the IRS still gets a perpetual royalty on every subsequent sale. Why can't the producer?

Because "the IRS" (not sure which jurisdiction you're in, but here in the US, it's actually the local and state government) is an entity controlled by elections that is obligated to spend its budget in ways decided on by elections, and therefore can reasonably exist forever. The royalties are not for the benefit of the IRS. A state or local government is sort of like an offline DAO, if you're familiar with DAOs. A pr…

I'm not talking about literal royalties. If I have an item that I buy new (or used) and it's not a depreciating asset, and I sell it, then I owe income tax or capital gains, don't I? And then when the new owner sells it a few months or years later as is common in the case of collectibles, they have to pay income tax or gains on their sale as well, and this continues for the entire life span of the object.
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