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How college became a ruthless competition divorced from learning

theatlantic.com

131–140 of 247 posts

Re: How college became a ruthless competition divorced from learning

#131

In some countries, like France and the United kingdom, the educational pyramid is even more skewed. In the United kingdom, graduates of Oxford University and Cambridge University are in a class of their own. Oxbridge alumni are overrepresented in politics, business, and the media. In France, the same phenomenon is at work with the École Polytechnique, the Écoles Normales Supérieures, and a few others. This creates sh…

> The article mentions that the graduates of law schools ranked in the top 10 earn 50% more than the graduates of law schools ranked 21-100,

In the end that's what's causing revolutions, i.e. members of the educated middle-class being left out and not getting on the financial bandwagon. Imo it all started with the French Revolution, some people say that it was a bourgeois vs nobles thing but many bourgeois were doing quite all right (think the banker Necker [1]), it was the small bourgeois (and lawyer) from out-of-Paris like Robespierre that was feeling left out.

The same thing happened between the two world wars in Europe. In my parts of the continent (Eastern Europe) there were too many college graduates chasing too few State jobs (the only ones available to college graduates at the time), plus Jewish students crowding them out in domains that were lucrative even if not working for the State (think Law and Medicine). The solution some of those people thought of? Joining the right-wing movement that was advocating for "cleansing the State" and doing very bad things to those Jewish students that were competing for the same jobs.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_Necker

Re: How college became a ruthless competition divorced from learning

#132
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not an Oxbridge or ENS graduate but I felt compelled to point out both had a competitive entry exam. I am unsure Oxbridge still does. The ecole normale system presupposes a national baccalaureate with ranking. The French took this seriously for decades. It was wafer thin egalitarianism because poor smart kids had a path in. I have little doubt nepotism also plays its part, but the fundamental underpinning is ran…

I don’t think the issue is that Oxbridge students aren’t on average, smart. It’s more that the implicit assumption of smart people can only come from Oxbridge. Branding is powerful, and it’s easy to fall into the trap in thinking that the smartest person from UCL isn’t as smart as the dumbest person from Cambridge. Being in America, I’ve seen lots of people just throw out resumes just because they’ve never heard of t…

Yeah, I've seen that. When I worked for a FAANG, we were doing the final set of interviews for a (very very good) candidate.

The first question the director asked was "where did she go to school?". Fortunately for her, she went to Oxford, so it was OK. I also remember the US recruiters telling us that there was a list of acceptable schools and we should stick to it.

Fortunately (for me, at least) we tended to ignore that crap in Europe. The funniest part was that my manager moved over to the US, and hired ten really really good people by just looking for qualified candidates who didn't go to one of the acceptable schools. I'm pretty sure all those people are the core of a very good team now.

Re: How college became a ruthless competition divorced from learning

#133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if one asks probing questions about the project the candidate lied about doing?

So, the technical interviewer says “no hire.” But the VP (who went to the candidate’s alma mater) says yes. And the Director who knows the candidate’s uncle from the country club says yes. And the candidate really laid it on thick for the hiring manager who has the final say. What did the tech nerd say, again? It increasingly feels like the world’s reward systems have been captured by and saturated with these charmin…

I feel palpable despair about this. For me it has tended to imply that the work itself is not valuable, for otherwise the incentive system would be corrected quickly.

Re: How college became a ruthless competition divorced from learning

#134
> In law, graduates of top-10 schools make on average half more than graduates of schools ranked 21 to 100

When you consider where the people who graduate from top-10 schools live, this is neither surprising nor impressive. Most of these law grads live in NYC/Chicago/DC/SF/LA or a handful of other expensive cities. They make good money — starting salaries are around $200k — but they also pay tons in rent, mortgages, private school bills, etc.

Compare this with a graduate of a 50-something ranked law school. This person probably lives in a city or town that where the cost of living is half of NYC/SF. They likely also work fewer hours than their top-10 counterparts. If they are making 2/3 of what a top-10 law grad is making, they're getting the better deal by far.

Source: former Palo Alto lawyer

Re: How college became a ruthless competition divorced from learning

#135

> In law, graduates of top-10 schools make on average half more than graduates of schools ranked 21 to 100 When you consider where the people who graduate from top-10 schools live, this is neither surprising nor impressive. Most of these law grads live in NYC/Chicago/DC/SF/LA or a handful of other expensive cities. They make good money — starting salaries are around $200k — but they also pay tons in rent, mortgages,…

That's a weird wording: Half more would mean 50% more (so not double, but 1.5x)?

I think the real reason people willingly take on that Big City grind is to have a shot at making partner at a top firm (which would mean they make 10x more than their midwest prairie dweller counterparts).

Re: How college became a ruthless competition divorced from learning

#136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think the issue is that Oxbridge students aren’t on average, smart. It’s more that the implicit assumption of smart people can only come from Oxbridge. Branding is powerful, and it’s easy to fall into the trap in thinking that the smartest person from UCL isn’t as smart as the dumbest person from Cambridge. Being in America, I’ve seen lots of people just throw out resumes just because they’ve never heard of t…

Yeah, I've seen that. When I worked for a FAANG, we were doing the final set of interviews for a (very very good) candidate. The first question the director asked was "where did she go to school?". Fortunately for her, she went to Oxford, so it was OK. I also remember the US recruiters telling us that there was a list of acceptable schools and we should stick to it. Fortunately (for me, at least) we tended to ignore…

As a Canadian in America I don’t know a lot of US schools. It’s pretty funny to see how offended people can be when I haven’t heard of like, Williams, or Vassar.

Re: How college became a ruthless competition divorced from learning

#137
post #94
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not an Oxbridge or ENS graduate but I felt compelled to point out both had a competitive entry exam. I am unsure Oxbridge still does. The ecole normale system presupposes a national baccalaureate with ranking. The French took this seriously for decades. It was wafer thin egalitarianism because poor smart kids had a path in. I have little doubt nepotism also plays its part, but the fundamental underpinning is ran…

for ENS and polytechnique, I remember reading that a very large number of the accepted candidates for such schools came from a handful of rich kids high schools and can be traced back to a handful of rich kids Kindergartens. (I can't find the article)

Wealth helps tremendously indeed.

Usually, before accessing those schools, you have to study for 2 years in a preparatory program called a Classe Préparatoire. Point is, the best can be quite expensive.

The most egregious thing though is that during school holidays in France, some private organisms (in Paris) offer 1 or 2-week cramming programs for €10-15k a pop where you get tutored by the very people that write the entrance exams to the most prestigious schools.

Wealth is a key.

Re: How college became a ruthless competition divorced from learning

#138

Maybe someone on HN can answer this for me. Why are these articles about the American system written as if they are new developments. Nothing in this article sounds any different from how things were 50 years ago, and probably earlier. I am guessing that 1. more kids are going to college today than 50 years ago (that should be a good thing) and competing for spots at top schools (thus more competition) and 2. the Ame…

A few things have changed. College is no longer a tool of social mobility. It is table stakes to keep your current status. If you do not go to college, you are unlikely to stay within the middle class. People may cite plumbers but they don't make a fortune and the physical toll is quite serious. Second, funding has been cut for public universities significantly. A lot of public universities charge tuition that is far…

....... Does being a good golfer really matter for this in the US? I don't like pulling the "haha Americans weird" card but I'm glad my education does not depend on my golf game here in Europe.

Re: How college became a ruthless competition divorced from learning

#139

As a current student, I see this first-hand. I go to a school that is moderately prestigious, but not well known for CS. Far too many of my classmates are obsessed with the same hamster wheel of optimizing grades, superficial extracurriculars and rec letter chasing. This isn't surprising; it's what got them into this school in the first place. Unfortunately for them it's also quite useless in tech. Some of them go as…

It’s way better than this, to be honest. It’s okay and safe to be more optimistic. These organizations are not perfect but I personally have seen for myself that they do tend to support the best and brightest, and they are actively expanding free offerings rapidly to do this for anyone with internet. It’s becoming more accessible each year to get that quality education in tech and science and business in general, in a condensed quality format.

Re: How college became a ruthless competition divorced from learning

#140

As a current student, I see this first-hand. I go to a school that is moderately prestigious, but not well known for CS. Far too many of my classmates are obsessed with the same hamster wheel of optimizing grades, superficial extracurriculars and rec letter chasing. This isn't surprising; it's what got them into this school in the first place. Unfortunately for them it's also quite useless in tech. Some of them go as…

If I owned a company I would refuse to hire graduates from MIT, Harvard, and Stanford. It's much more likely that you were good at lying than at studying if you went there, and I don't have time to teach the basics.

Your comment begs the question: Have you ever personally worked with graduates from any of those schools?
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