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Denmark to permanently cease using AstraZeneca vaccine

reuters.com

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Re: Denmark to permanently cease using AstraZeneca vaccine

#131

Post by gmueckl »

hef19898 wrote: post #107
gmueckl wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess that a decision needed to be made in a timely manner to provide guidelines for those who get their second dose before end of April?

Which would mean mixing vaccines without any trials done on the effects of this. As compared to using a second AZ shot, which has been analyzed and approved. Seems risky to my untrained eye. And it wouldn't be hte first AZ related recommendation that changes every other week. We had so far: - not for people over 65 because of underrepresentation in the trials - not for people under 60 because of blood clots before an…

Can't argue with that. Everything about the AZ vaccine in politics and the media has been a shitshow so far. AZ themselves probably were caught off guard by the initial bad reporting and the wave of negative public reactions. They don't normally have to play the mass media game in their business.

Re: Denmark to permanently cease using AstraZeneca vaccine

#132

Post by 0xfaded »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #38
mellosouls wrote: post #8

This seems like another overreaction that will be interpreted - rightly or wrongly - in the UK in political (Brexit) terms rather than medical or scientific (although they are clearly an important consideration). It's difficult to see how Denmark isn't failing its population with this decision.

If they're confident that they can source enough doses of another vaccine that has better efficacy and is not linked to serious side effects (even if very rare) then it makes sense for them to go with that one and drop AZ. But if the alternative is no vaccine or AZ then it is indeed vastly better to continue using AZ. Denmark's population is also less than 6 million so they don't need a massive supply compared to lar…

I'm currently living in Denmark. They are performing 200k PCR tests per day, that's literally 1/30th of the population every day.

If they could source the vaccines, they have the infrastructure to vaccinate the population in a month.

Of course, Denmark is part of Europe and therefore bears equal parts responsibility for the EU vaccination program joke.

Re: Denmark to permanently cease using AstraZeneca vaccine

#133

Post by rhn_mk1 »

AndrewUnmuted wrote: post #113
Tenoke wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Professionals make wrong decisions all the time, often because the wrong professionals are the ones making them. Are people already forgetting how masks were actively disrecommended by 'professionals' at the start of the pandemic while plenty here and in other places were similarly saying that masks are obviously good?

> Are people already forgetting how masks were actively disrecommended by 'professionals' at the start of the pandemic while plenty here and in other places were similarly saying that masks are obviously good? We are talking about science, I thought. Phrases like "obviously good," really are not in the scientific spirit. Professionals also said that double-masking is even more obviously, obviously good. But that obvi…

Nothing in the article states that double masking is not good. It merely states that the study doesn't give any reliable conclusions.

Re: Denmark to permanently cease using AstraZeneca vaccine

#134

Post by jonathanstrange »

Tenoke wrote: post #69
londons_explore wrote: post #53

This decision seems illogical to many commenters here, but I assume the decision was made by professionals with all the data in front of them. Which then raises the question, why did these professionals make a decision so different than the "obvious" opinion here?

Professionals make wrong decisions all the time, often because the wrong professionals are the ones making them. Are people already forgetting how masks were actively disrecommended by 'professionals' at the start of the pandemic while plenty here and in other places were similarly saying that masks are obviously good?

You must have listened to the wrong "experts" then. There was a bit of an initial, politically influenced confusion in the US at the beginning up until about June. However, where I live all experts recommended wearing masks from the start. They did say that people should not rush to buy FFP2 masks and chirurgical masks at a time when there was a shortage of those for health professionals, which was definitely the right recommendation at the time. The most drastic "disrecommendation" I've ever heard by an expert was to point out that you don't need to wear a mask if you keep proper distance and follow all other hygiene measures.

In a nutshell, they did recommend not to wear masks for a short time during the beginning of the pandemic but at least the experts I've heard always provided the right justification - to prevent shortage.

Re: Denmark to permanently cease using AstraZeneca vaccine

#135

Post by ghaff »

akie wrote: post #115
hyko wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well...not really. The UK manufacturing capacity is tiny from a global perspective. The EU tried to scapegoat the UK for their failure to run an efficient procurement, but that was just irrational politicking. The U.S. obviously has more manufacturing capacity, but like the UK it basically has no chance of dealing with the pandemic without mass vaccination, so exports are a political non starter. What was really requ…

> so exports are a political non-starter ...in the US and the UK. In the end it's also a reflection of what is important to a nation. Should the strong help the weak? Is it every man for themselves? Thank you for making my point. I think pointing to "international organizations" to do something, when you could have done something yourself, is a weak argument.

Why on earth would the US export when it's supply-constrained itself? Of course, the US can and will export once it has sufficient supply. But countries exist in large part to look after the self-interest of their own population. It would rightly be a complete political non-starter for the US to start shipping vaccines elsewhere while it still needed more doses domestically.

Re: Denmark to permanently cease using AstraZeneca vaccine

#136

Post by de_keyboard »

eloff wrote: post #74
gms7777 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a real world example of a trolley problem. They're choosing to let a large group risk severe disease or death through inaction, rather than pulling the lever and have a small group be at risk due to their actions.

I think that's exactly it. There is a tradeoff to be made here with likely deaths on both sides, and the government is choosing much higher numbers of deaths because it looks better for them politically. That's immoral and cowardly. I don't see any way to justify the decision they've made logically.

I think there were broadly 3 strategies:

1. Do very little intervention, but perhaps isolate the vulnerable. This was the "Sweden strategy".

2. Do big interventions if cases rise, but only so far as is required to prevent hospitals being over-whelmed. This was the strategy in most of Europe, and in particular the UK.

3. Do big interventions with the intention of reaching "covid zero", including restrictions on international travel. This was the strategy of Australia, New Zealand, Taiwan and perhaps China (hard to get the full story).

Having spent the past year under (2) I wish I was living under (3). Sure it's painful in the short term, but compared to rolling lock-downs for over 12 months?

Re: Denmark to permanently cease using AstraZeneca vaccine

#137

Post by amelius »

cameronh90 wrote: post #63
amelius wrote: post #27

Perhaps they should close their roads too, because people die from traffic accidents ...

Denmark (along with the other Scandinavian countries and the UK) have almost the lowest traffic-related death rate in the world too. As far as I can tell, Denmark are reporting such a high rate of death from the AZ vaccine relative to the number of doses deployed, that the risk would actually be quite bad compared to driving. However, the absolute numbers are tiny so the uncertainty is enormous. It's quite possible t…

The number of traffic-related fatalities in Denmark is around 200 per year, see e.g. [1]. Blood clots appear in 4 per 1M people (UK numbers, [3]) or 10 per 1M (Denmark numbers, [2]). That would mean about 24 to 58 Danish people would get blood clots from their first shot. Denmark had 2447 covid deaths, [4]. If you zoom in on certain age-groups, then perhaps Denmark's decision could still make sense, though.

[1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/573861/number-of-traffic...

[2] https://www.thelocal.com/20210318/ten-blood-clot-cases-found...

[3] https://cosmosmagazine.com/health/medicine/covid-19-vaccinat...

[4] https://github.com/CSSEGISandData/COVID-19

Re: Denmark to permanently cease using AstraZeneca vaccine

#138

Post by jamaicahest »

eloff wrote: post #74
gms7777 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a real world example of a trolley problem. They're choosing to let a large group risk severe disease or death through inaction, rather than pulling the lever and have a small group be at risk due to their actions.

I think that's exactly it. There is a tradeoff to be made here with likely deaths on both sides, and the government is choosing much higher numbers of deaths because it looks better for them politically. That's immoral and cowardly. I don't see any way to justify the decision they've made logically.

Except it's not the government, or any politicians for that matter. It is the decision of medical professionals, basically the danish version of FDA decided to stop using Astra Zeneca vaccine. They have that level of power here in Denmark.

Re: Denmark to permanently cease using AstraZeneca vaccine

#139

Post by dlkf »

In both the comments and in other discussions, I've seen a lot of trolley problem analogies. This is a spectacularly bad analogy.

In the trolley problem, the people on the tracks have no choice! With regards to vaccines, we can give people a choice. A competent government would respect people's agency. It would say "Hey folks, the virus kills 1/N and the vaccine kills 1/M, take your pick."

When people learn the M is several orders of magnitude greater than N, they will act accordingly.

Re: Denmark to permanently cease using AstraZeneca vaccine

#140

Post by peytn »

0-_-0 wrote: post #75
kzrdude wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say they chose, but wasn't this a condition that came from Oxford in negotiations?

"Citing the attack from Macron and unfounded accusations over safety and efficacy, Bell [0] said the company could re-think its philanthropic stance. “There’s a point at which AstraZeneca could just say, ‘you’ve got to be joking, we’re going to stop [charging cost price] now because we’re not getting any credit for what we’re doing.’ The share price has gone down, not up. We’re making more vaccines than everybody els…

> “This is a safe and effective vaccine”

> Sir John Bell, the Oxford University professor who helped drive the vaccine’s development

Since academics traffic in reputation, this is an example of a conflict of interest I think.

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