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Scientists who say the lab-leak hypothesis for SARS-CoV-2 shouldn't be ruled out

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Re: Scientists who say the lab-leak hypothesis for SARS-CoV-2 shouldn't be ruled out

#131

Post by pvaldes »

ab7675226 wrote: post #18
newacct583 wrote: post #2

Almost no theories can be "ruled out" in this space. Viruses evolve in crazy and essentially unobservable ways. Nonetheless, we know there was a close relative documented in bats on the same continent within a comparable timeframe. The clearly obvious hypothesis is that animal transmission was the vector, for the simple reason that this is the way every single other pandemic, human or otherwise, has happened. There i…

Occam's Razor indeed. The lab in Wuhan was studying bats and coronaviruses. Animal transmission is completely consistent with a lab leak, especially given that the virus in question is transmissible before symptoms. The wet market in Wuhan was not selling bats.

If there are insects, bats will come sooner or later, and tiny bat-bombs will follow.

Re: Scientists who say the lab-leak hypothesis for SARS-CoV-2 shouldn't be ruled out

#132

Post by kolbe »

abecedarius wrote: post #61
metalliqaz wrote: post #37

it's not xenophobic, but xenophobic people really love to talk about it. that's the problem with the discourse. of course the irony is that it doesn't even matter. We already know China (1) tried to cover it up, screwing the rest of the world, and (2) has poor wet market sanitation practices that seem designed to cultivate these kinds of diseases. Those issues are already bad enough.

> xenophobic people really love to talk about it Guilt by association + Overton Window enforcement. I guess you're pointing this out and not endorsing it?

Which is obviously a problem. The US more or less has two sides, and both are routinely responsible for(or at least align with) morally reprehensible things. It should not be a problem to choose truth regardless of where if falls in a political spectrum. And no one who wants to just find the truth should have to second guess their findings because they're politically inconvenient for someone.

Re: Scientists who say the lab-leak hypothesis for SARS-CoV-2 shouldn't be ruled out

#133

Post by 2OEH8eoCRo0 »

metalliqaz wrote: post #37

it's not xenophobic, but xenophobic people really love to talk about it. that's the problem with the discourse. of course the irony is that it doesn't even matter. We already know China (1) tried to cover it up, screwing the rest of the world, and (2) has poor wet market sanitation practices that seem designed to cultivate these kinds of diseases. Those issues are already bad enough.

I suspect that the Chinese government actively works to conflate criticism as xenophobia. This same strategy is exactly why it's so hard to discuss Israel in anything other than a positive light.

Re: Scientists who say the lab-leak hypothesis for SARS-CoV-2 shouldn't be ruled out

#134

Post by dang »

tinntin22 wrote: post #14

Ironic, if you said this during the Trump era you were a racist.

Please don't take HN threads into flamewar. It's not what this site is for.

If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and sticking to the rules when posting here, we'd be grateful. They include:

"Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive."

Re: Scientists who say the lab-leak hypothesis for SARS-CoV-2 shouldn't be ruled out

#136

Post by fasteddie31003 »

I've read that https://www.ecohealthalliance.org/ was funding coronavirus gain-of-function research at the Wuhan lab prior to the pandemic. My question is why Eco Health Alliance wanted this research? What benefits come from artificially evolving a dangerous pathogen? Here's the article https://www.independentsciencenews.org/news/peter-daszaks-ec...

Re: Scientists who say the lab-leak hypothesis for SARS-CoV-2 shouldn't be ruled out

#137

Post by godelski »

arcticbull wrote: post #127
loveistheanswer wrote: post #23

Judging by the comments in this thread, it seems a lot of people are still unaware that: 1. Gain of function research primarily uses samples collected from nature, and seeks to stimulate their evolution in as natural a way as possible to learn how viruses evolve in nature. If such viruses were to escape the lab, they would appear "natural" 2. It's not xenophobic for people from the US to suggest the possibility of a…

It's also not xenophobic to suggest the possibility of a lab leak because lab leaks happen regardless of who's doing the research; even at BSL-4 facilities, mistakes are made. And also because there were two separate SARS-CoV-1 leaks/outbreaks from Chinese labs which the PRC admitted to. [1] [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC403836/

I just want to add: "A government is not the people and the people are not the government." Just in case this needs to be stated for anyone here or reading. If you disagree with a people's government that doesn't mean you should treat the people of said government in a critical manner. Their views do not necessarily reflect that of their government (often they do not, just look at us here in America where criticizing the government is the great American past time)

Re: Scientists who say the lab-leak hypothesis for SARS-CoV-2 shouldn't be ruled out

#138

Post by throwaway4good »

loveistheanswer wrote: post #23

Judging by the comments in this thread, it seems a lot of people are still unaware that: 1. Gain of function research primarily uses samples collected from nature, and seeks to stimulate their evolution in as natural a way as possible to learn how viruses evolve in nature. If such viruses were to escape the lab, they would appear "natural" 2. It's not xenophobic for people from the US to suggest the possibility of a…

You are missing the important bit: The lab leak would have to be covered up by the Chinese authorities and the WHO would some how have had to be in on it.

Read the section in the WHO report on COVID19 and listen to the reputable international scientist that actually went and visited the lab and interviewed the people who worked there.

https://www.who.int/health-topics/coronavirus/origins-of-the...

Re: Scientists who say the lab-leak hypothesis for SARS-CoV-2 shouldn't be ruled out

#139

Post by endisneigh »

disambiguation wrote: post #102
endisneigh wrote: post #42

Every time this comes I ask - "so what?" So again, I ask - even if it's true, so what? It's impossible to conclusively prove, and even if proven what exactly is proven? That an accident occurred? OK, so what? The article attempts to answer this: > The vitriol also obscures a broader imperative, Relman says, which is that uncovering the virus’s origins is crucial to stopping the next pandemic. Threats from both lab ac…

> It's impossible to conclusively prove no it's not. it might be impossible to prove the negative, but if it did come from the lab there should be physical records and first hand witnesses. > so what so maybe we make it a point to have the lab shut down so this doesn't happen again? maybe we publicly acknowledge there are secret teams working on secret science and viruses that can kill people en masse? but you have a…

You have a misunderstanding of reality. The USA has done the exact same research before, and we have (also) had accidents around pathogens being mishandled, and we have had a consequent ban.

However we ended up unbanning it and we still do it now. If the goal is to simply stop this type of research in its entirety, there's still no point of trying to get China to stop as we have no authority in China (or any other country) to begin with. Even if China were to claim they've stopped we have no way of knowing.

Let's just assume China did have a lab accident. OK, then what? We tell them to stop doing it? Let's say they agree. In the future they decide to start doing it again. The entire thing is pointless to begin with. We can't get our own citizens to consistently wear masks and we think we're going to substantially change China's behavior here - hilarious.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-00210-5

Re: Scientists who say the lab-leak hypothesis for SARS-CoV-2 shouldn't be ruled out

#140

Post by Pokepokalypse »

arcticbull wrote: post #127
loveistheanswer wrote: post #23

Judging by the comments in this thread, it seems a lot of people are still unaware that: 1. Gain of function research primarily uses samples collected from nature, and seeks to stimulate their evolution in as natural a way as possible to learn how viruses evolve in nature. If such viruses were to escape the lab, they would appear "natural" 2. It's not xenophobic for people from the US to suggest the possibility of a…

It's also not xenophobic to suggest the possibility of a lab leak because lab leaks happen regardless of who's doing the research; even at BSL-4 facilities, mistakes are made. And also because there were two separate SARS-CoV-1 leaks/outbreaks from Chinese labs which the PRC admitted to. [1] [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC403836/

It is not xenophobic to suggest that.

However; since the "leaked virus" narrative was mostly parroted by rightwing media, and promoted from an overtly racist and xenophobic administration and political party, (in the USA) - it very much muddies the waters. There's also some very strong, direct evidence, that political appointees discussed (over email) strategies for subverting messaging from actual scientific experts who had actual data and studies backing up alternative explanations.

It would be nice if such narratives arose organically from actual events, and could be discussed openly. But that's impossible in our present political environment, and that's one of many many hazards of far-right politics. Any questions? Just ask Galileo his opinion on the matter.

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