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MIT suspending SAT/ACT requirement for next application cycle

mitadmissions.org

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Re: MIT suspending SAT/ACT requirement for next application cycle

#131

Post by floren »

Spivak wrote: post #94
ericmay wrote: post #36

One question on my mind (as someone who has a master's degree and engineering degree and has never taken the ACT/SAT) is how kids will go about showing pure intellectual merit? Like let's say you grow up ok but you can't really afford to join the ski club or for a tutor and maybe you work in the evenings but you crush the SAT/ACT because you're incredibly intelligent. How will universities like MIT take that into acc…

Preface: I scored extremely well on the SAT/ACT so I would have every incentive to keep the status quo. I think these tests should stick around as an option for students to prove their aptitude but that the requirement for them should be dropped. Being smart does help you on these tests but not as much as you would hope. The things that meaningfully affect your score are studying for them and learning the specific ma…

Well, I scored 760 on the verbal because I read constantly and voraciously. I didn't "study" for it except in the sense that I'd spent the last decade with my face in a book on the bus, during lunch, as I walked from class to class, after I finished work in class, and so on.

Of course my aptitude at picking out synonyms didn't really indicate a damn thing about how well I could write an exam essay about the Reconstruction Era, so the fact that I got a good score without studying doesn't say that much for the test.

Re: MIT suspending SAT/ACT requirement for next application cycle

#132

Post by dragonwriter »

Spivak wrote: post #94
ericmay wrote: post #36

One question on my mind (as someone who has a master's degree and engineering degree and has never taken the ACT/SAT) is how kids will go about showing pure intellectual merit? Like let's say you grow up ok but you can't really afford to join the ski club or for a tutor and maybe you work in the evenings but you crush the SAT/ACT because you're incredibly intelligent. How will universities like MIT take that into acc…

Preface: I scored extremely well on the SAT/ACT so I would have every incentive to keep the status quo. I think these tests should stick around as an option for students to prove their aptitude but that the requirement for them should be dropped. Being smart does help you on these tests but not as much as you would hope. The things that meaningfully affect your score are studying for them and learning the specific ma…

> I scored extremely well on the SAT/ACT so I would have every incentive to keep the status quo.

I did too (well, the SAT; given that and that evrywhere I wanted to apply took the SAT, the ACT would have been superfluous), but...

> Being smart does help you on these tests but not as much as you would hope.

Its pretty much all being smart. Focussed study has some effect (and because small score differences at the high end make big competitive differences, can be worthwhile), bit don’t really do much.

Scores are quite tightly correlatee with IQ, which is why, e.g., MENSA accepts them in place of IQ tests.

> The things that meaningfully affect your score are studying for them and learning the specific material on the test.

Sure, those are the things in your control near the time of taking the test that affect your score, aside from “not getting wasted the morning of the test”. There’s not much you (or anyone else) can do after early childhood to significantly improve your probable IQ at the time you take the test, but that’s still the main outcome driver.

Re: MIT suspending SAT/ACT requirement for next application cycle

#133

Post by lotsofpulp »

fuzzer37 wrote: post #93
rudderz wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't get why students need to be apply to be accepted. Why can't everyone go to MIT? Is there a scarcity on chalk boards, shitty chairs and cinder blocks?

With online schooling this is true now more than ever. Why _cant_ i just follow along online, have a bot grade the assignments, and get a degree? Makes you start to question what going to prestigious schools is really about.

>Makes you start to question what going to prestigious schools is really about.

Parents should teach their kids about the importance of networking and signaling while growing up. Obviously, it's secondary to actually being proficient and productive, but still just as necessary.

Re: MIT suspending SAT/ACT requirement for next application cycle

#134

Post by helen___keller »

rychco wrote: post #111
helen___keller wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would challenge if ACT/SAT is much about pure intellectual merit, considering how much one can boost their score with dedicated tutors and so on, but I digress. How to show intellectual merit other than standardized tests without relying on rich parents: (a) Straight As (b) (if applicable) Take all AP courses available at your high school (c) (if applicable) Take additional college courses through community college…

“When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure.” If your suggested measures were considered, they would quickly become targets & add to the already insane workload that high school students must put up with in order to be considered competitive applicants. It's unfortunately not a scenario where you can say 'Pick one of (a) through (d)', because it will quickly become all of (a) through (d) .

> they would quickly become targets

This is already the case. My list is meant to be descriptive, not prescriptive nor aspirational

Re: MIT suspending SAT/ACT requirement for next application cycle

#136

Post by specialist »

Like a lot of things, the pandemic will be used as cover to stop (or change) stuff everyone hates, but otherwise don't have the courage to discontinue otherwise.

--

Is anyone using lotteries as part of admissions?

My interest in lotteries comes thru 1) warming up to the notion of sortition, 2) tired of the food fight over affirmative action, and 3) rejection of ever increasing bureaucracy and credentialing.

As a mental model, I'm starting to think of lotteries as an optimization technique.

--

I briefly worked on some student facing stuff in higher ed. The course registration stuff is insane. There's got to be more fair, easier to administrate systems. Something like an auction. Release some fraction of courses every time interval. Figure out some rational way to prioritize bids. Like add weight for seniority, students in program, declared major. Or whatever. Then administrators can add or remove courses, sections, labs, whatever as needed.

--

Now that our university monopolies have been privatized, why hasn't Freedom Markets™ logic prevailed? Raise supply to meet demand.

Higher ed loves government pork. But are completely unaccountable.

If we are states are no longer willing to adjudicate bottom up, they must now impose some kind of top down pressure.

The most simple idea I can think of is raid (radical cashectomies) the endowments. Use it or lose. Compel places like MIT and Harvard to spend down their hoard. Increase slots. Add campuses. Adopt other universities and invest in them, like scholastic version of sport farm teams.

Let Freedom Markets™ sing!

Re: MIT suspending SAT/ACT requirement for next application cycle

#137

Post by sokoloff »

rychco wrote: post #84

Most people have already mentioned that this change could result in discrimination, but I think it's also extremely important to note that these high school students are extremely overworked. If a student is a top-tier applicant that has good grades, plays a sport, participates in a club or two, volunteers, & has a part-time job, they are easily working a minimum of 60+ hours per week. There is absolutely no way this…

Selecting for students who have a track record of success in spite of 60-hours of time being "spoken for" is a not unreasonable selection process for students who will succeed at MIT.

Re: MIT suspending SAT/ACT requirement for next application cycle

#139

Post by alistairSH »

rychco wrote: post #111
helen___keller wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would challenge if ACT/SAT is much about pure intellectual merit, considering how much one can boost their score with dedicated tutors and so on, but I digress. How to show intellectual merit other than standardized tests without relying on rich parents: (a) Straight As (b) (if applicable) Take all AP courses available at your high school (c) (if applicable) Take additional college courses through community college…

“When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure.” If your suggested measures were considered, they would quickly become targets & add to the already insane workload that high school students must put up with in order to be considered competitive applicants. It's unfortunately not a scenario where you can say 'Pick one of (a) through (d)', because it will quickly become all of (a) through (d) .

Applicants to top universities are already doing (a) through (d), so removing the SAT should help - it's one less thing to worry about. If the AP/IB exams are just as good a proxy for "college aptitude", we should just us those, right?

Re: MIT suspending SAT/ACT requirement for next application cycle

#140

Post by option »

helen___keller wrote: post #120
option wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yeah, try finding good “free” math club when kid is 6-7 y.o. And by the time there are actually viable free options the kids are already far behind. Preparing for tests are much cheaper than joining good clubs and/or preparing to write a food essays

I'm not sure I understand your point. GP was looking for how an applicant who is smart but not privileged can show how they are smart, so that's what I was listing. Literally, what I did in high school. I joined the math team and went to competitions. When my school didn't have the funding or interest to go to regional competitions, I managed to get myself signed up as a team of 1 representing my school and hitch a r…

that’s literally what I did too and (not to brag but) I got on my country’s international math team and got free admission to university because of that. But how many were there? 10 at most.

Edit: my point is that finding the right math club at the right time is even more luck and effort than getting good on standard tests.

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