A new moralism is gripping the literary world • Hacker News Board

Re: A new moralism is gripping the literary world

#131

Post by bryanrasmussen » Fri, Mar 19, 2021, 4:02 PM UTC

gregallan wrote: post #79

wincy wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A few days ago they were one of the top torrents on a high seas themed site. I archived them if for no other reason than because I’ve been told that I shouldn’t.

Nobody is telling you you shouldn’t archive them. The publishers decided they weren’t comfortable selling them to be shown to children. I’m personally glad that you’ve helped preserve these once-beloved cultural artifacts. However, I’d hope that anyone would hesitate to give these particular books to children in 2021.

>Nobody is telling you you shouldn’t archive them.

while technically true this is also essentially wrong, if someone stops selling something for moral reasons then they are strongly implying you are immoral for acquiring the thing they have stopped selling; and it is a necessary component of the immoral that one should not have the immoral, transmit the immoral, commit the immoral or otherwise partake of the immoral.

Re: A new moralism is gripping the literary world

#132

Post by dragonwriter » Fri, Mar 19, 2021, 4:02 PM UTC

at_a_remove wrote: post #93

dragonwriter wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The idea is that Rowling makes money off of selling her books and has built an empire, and the resultant power is now used by her as a platform to propagate anti-trans speech. Quite a different issue and also quite novel People building fame in art and using that fame to advocate for causes, including the cause of preserving the marginalization of particular marginalized communities, is not novel.

This take sounds like Rowling had written Harry Potter to fulfill her dream of one day being famous and crushing transsexuals beneath her expensive heels. "When I am a billionaire author," she cackled, "I will show them all!" Famous people are still people, and they still have opinions. Opinions you might not even agree with. Are we to exclude the famous from speaking their opinions? I would love to see how that woul…

> This take sounds like Rowling had written Harry Potter to fulfill her dream of one day being famous and crushing transsexuals beneath her expensive heels.

First, my response was denying that the description was of a phenomenon which was in any way novel as the upthread poster claimed, it wasn’t my description.

Second, I don’t read it that way: it was simply describing that, Rowling achieved fame and then, having achieved it, used it to sell certain ideas. There was no suggestion that it was planned in advance as a strategy, or even that that use was especially prominent among her uses of the fame.

Re: A new moralism is gripping the literary world

#133

Post by CodeGlitch » Fri, Mar 19, 2021, 4:02 PM UTC

CodeGlitch wrote: post #130

karaterobot wrote: post #8

This article is ridiculous. The current wave of book burning, censorship and denunciation is completely different from previous ones, because I support the positions of the mob. I know that this wave of book burnings, censorship and denunciation will lead to a brighter tomorrow. I should point out that I don't support 100% of the positions of the mob, but I won't say which ones I disagree with because I don't want to…

> This article is ridiculous. The current wave of book burning, censorship and denunciation is completely different from previous ones, because I support the positions of the mob. I know that this wave of book burnings, censorship and denunciation will lead to a brighter tomorrow. > I should point out that I don't support 100% of the positions of the mob, but I won't say which ones I disagree with because I don't wan…

I see other's have answered my question!

Re: A new moralism is gripping the literary world

#134

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Mar 19, 2021, 4:03 PM UTC

karaterobot wrote: post #8

This article is ridiculous. The current wave of book burning, censorship and denunciation is completely different from previous ones, because I support the positions of the mob. I know that this wave of book burnings, censorship and denunciation will lead to a brighter tomorrow. I should point out that I don't support 100% of the positions of the mob, but I won't say which ones I disagree with because I don't want to…

[deleted]

Re: A new moralism is gripping the literary world

#135

Post by nickthemagicman » Fri, Mar 19, 2021, 4:04 PM UTC

ed25519FUUU wrote: post #13

nickthemagicman wrote: post #6

It's gripping the entire world. When things are judged, not by how the author intended, but by the readers interpretation, it's a bad situation.

Oscar Wilde has something to say about censorship (and he knew a little bit about being attacked for writing): > There is no such thing as a moral or an immoral book. Books are well written, or badly written. That is all. In today’s highly polarized and tribal world, books must also be a way to signal virtue and tribe membership.

This also applies to art in general.

Marcel Duchamps Fountain was one of my favorite pieces of art because it called out the art world for judging art based on the fact that it was made by a member of the accepted 'art world' but it was a frickin urinal.

Re: A new moralism is gripping the literary world

#136

Post by shoemakersteve » Fri, Mar 19, 2021, 4:04 PM UTC

blub wrote: post #69

KittenInABox wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one is saying Woody Allen shouldn't produce his own memoir. I am saying its weird to conflate not desiring to purchase the nonfiction rights of a credibly accused child molester and then profit off of selling that same nonfiction to otherwise significantly more niche issues such as whether or not a white author should be writing black protagonists. The end of the essay even focuses on the race aspect! I just compl…

Credibly accused is not a thing. You're either guilty or not guilty and he hasn't been found guilty.

Yes, the world is black and white. Definitely no grey areas in the legal system. Certainly no guilty people get off on technicalities.

Re: A new moralism is gripping the literary world

#137

Post by Avicebron » Fri, Mar 19, 2021, 4:04 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #105

harshreality wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The tl;dr of it is that she's commented about biological femininity as a real experience distinct from trans-females. That offends the ideological extreme of the trans movement which has labelled her a TERF (trans-exclusionary radical feminist).

JKR is much more clearly TE than RF.

why is it TE to have an opinion?

Re: A new moralism is gripping the literary world

#138

Post by canoebuilder » Fri, Mar 19, 2021, 4:05 PM UTC

whydoibother wrote: post #36

nickthemagicman wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we're censoring ideas based on culture then computers, and cars, and planes, should only be allowed to be used by white men.

White isn’t a culture. Also BIPOC have made contributions to all those things. Way to erase them.

>white isn't a culture

FJ Haydn spent the bulk of his working career in Hungary, toward the end of his career he went to France and England and received large adoring audiences, not as some kind of exoticism, but because he was/is a giant of European/white culture.

Why would anyone say “white isn't a culture” except to express animosity towards white people?

Arch, Debian, Suse, etc. are cultures, but gnu/Linux isn't?

Re: A new moralism is gripping the literary world

#139

Post by krapp » Fri, Mar 19, 2021, 4:05 PM UTC

radiator wrote: post #72

meanjeans wrote: post #24

I think the author here misrepresented the JK Rowling thing quite a bit. The idea is not to "scour" her texts for hidden anti-trans sentiment. The idea is that Rowling makes money off of selling her books and has built an empire, and the resultant power is now used by her as a platform to propagate anti-trans speech. Quite a different issue and also quite novel (pun unintended). Death of the Author is a concurrently…

But why is it considered anti-trans speech, when a villain is "a male serial killer known to have worn a dress"? Surely, in many other books the serial killer is a straight male. Why are their authors not accused of anti-heterosexual speech? Are we promoting some sort of discrimination against straight males? Are they the only ones allowed to be evil?

> But why is it considered anti-trans speech, when a villain is "a male serial killer known to have worn a dress"?

Mostly the cultural effects of the Hays code and decades of queer-coding villains as evil or sexually depraved in fiction and popular culture. A fictional male serial killer tends not to simply "have worn a dress," that specific detail, like all details in fiction, is intended to communicate something to the reader/viewer, and most of the time it's to present the character's non-heteronormative behavior as a symptom of their moral evil.

Technically speaking there's nothing wrong with depicting a Black person eating a watermelon and fried chicken but there's context behind the tendency to interpret it other than purely literal terms.

Re: A new moralism is gripping the literary world

#140

Post by red02 » Fri, Mar 19, 2021, 4:05 PM UTC

whydoibother wrote: post #36

nickthemagicman wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we're censoring ideas based on culture then computers, and cars, and planes, should only be allowed to be used by white men.

White isn’t a culture. Also BIPOC have made contributions to all those things. Way to erase them.

White is a more valid concept than POC is.