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It's official: developers get better with age. And scarcer.

coding-and-more.blogspot.com

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Re: It's official: developers get better with age. And scarcer.

#131

Post by Terretta »

divtxt wrote: post #120
rbanffy wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't feel any smarter than I were on my 20's. OTOH, software has gotten much more complex. Mastering the Apple II ROM routines is one thing, but understanding how every piece in a complex web application (app server, rdbms, non-relational storage, cache) interact is much harder. After wrapping my brain around some concepts, it feels very thin. We rely on Google and the web to supplement our memories for things tha…

I find web development less enjoyable than 5 or 10 years ago because of the increasing size and complexity of the stack. At least us old fogies have had the last 15 years to learn web development. How the hell do young programmers learn such a big stack in a few years? I'm guessing half using youthful energy and the other half skipped in blissful ignorance?! :)

How the hell do young programmers learn such a big stack in a few years?

Welcome to the museum of modern wheels -- we have every shape but round.

Re: It's official: developers get better with age. And scarcer.

#132

Post by seldo »

divtxt wrote: post #120
rbanffy wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't feel any smarter than I were on my 20's. OTOH, software has gotten much more complex. Mastering the Apple II ROM routines is one thing, but understanding how every piece in a complex web application (app server, rdbms, non-relational storage, cache) interact is much harder. After wrapping my brain around some concepts, it feels very thin. We rely on Google and the web to supplement our memories for things tha…

I find web development less enjoyable than 5 or 10 years ago because of the increasing size and complexity of the stack. At least us old fogies have had the last 15 years to learn web development. How the hell do young programmers learn such a big stack in a few years? I'm guessing half using youthful energy and the other half skipped in blissful ignorance?! :)

Specialization.

When I was starting out, I did design, frontend dev, backend dev, and ops work. Over the last 15 years these positions have all split into specializations: design was the first to go, then ops. The split between frontend and backend opened up in the middle of the last decade, and continues to split even further into controller and model devs on the back end and Javascript and CSS people on the frontend.

The increasingly popularity of frameworks stems from this specialization. It's more important than ever to have separation of concerns, because as apps get larger, individual devs are doing smaller and smaller sections of the work.

Young programmers don't know less than us -- they know way more than we do, but on a much narrower range.

Re: It's official: developers get better with age. And scarcer.

#133

Post by rbanffy »

jamesbritt wrote: post #129
divtxt wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find web development less enjoyable than 5 or 10 years ago because of the increasing size and complexity of the stack. At least us old fogies have had the last 15 years to learn web development. How the hell do young programmers learn such a big stack in a few years? I'm guessing half using youthful energy and the other half skipped in blissful ignorance?! :)

I find web development less enjoyable than 5 or 10 years ago because of the increasing size and complexity of the stack. Part of this is that stacks that start off all light and fresh "we're not Struts!" before long acquire a few too many "must-have" features until, Lo! they are Struts. Then it's time to drop that framework and find something more fresh, light, and lean, and enjoy it while it lasts.

The past weekend (during a RHoK event) I was introduced to TipFy by a young dude who's far faster than me in grokking new tools. It was easy, fresh and led to a fun weekend of web development.

Tipfy runs on the Google App Engine Python stack. It's a bit rough on the edges, but that's part of the fun.

Re: It's official: developers get better with age. And scarcer.

#134

Post by seldo »

alanh wrote: post #94

Aaargh! The data doesn’t say this, all the data says is “Older StackOverflow users have disproportionately high SO reputation.” An alternate explanation is that for some reason older developers are more likely to be addicted to Stack Overflow. A big problem here is the unproven assertion that high SO reputation means you are a “better developer.” Does it really? (After all, with few exceptions, the more active you ar…

Yeah, my conclusion from the data was "senior developers know more things and have more time on their hands to tell others about those things", which is exactly what you'd expect. The more senior you get, the more your role is as guide and mentor than immediate implementor.

Re: It's official: developers get better with age. And scarcer.

#135

Post by jamesbritt »

rbanffy wrote: post #118
raganwald wrote: post #34

Tell HN: On a barely related subject, tomorrow is my 49th birthday.

Happy Birthday!!! And I agree with 6ren. You definitely look like a 20-something.

I suspect Reg has a portrait hidden in a closet someplace that is not fairing as well. :)

Re: It's official: developers get better with age. And scarcer.

#136

Post by shubber »

rbanffy wrote: post #103
kmavm wrote: post #37

Since I don't see this specifically addressed in the text: I suspect this is a classic case of survivorship bias. The same way the stock market looks better and better the further back you go, because you aren't tracking the stocks of companies that are no longer in business, developers probably look better and better the further they are into their careers, since all the ones who've fallen by the wayside probably we…

I don't feel any smarter than I were on my 20's. OTOH, software has gotten much more complex. Mastering the Apple II ROM routines is one thing, but understanding how every piece in a complex web application (app server, rdbms, non-relational storage, cache) interact is much harder. After wrapping my brain around some concepts, it feels very thin. We rely on Google and the web to supplement our memories for things tha…

I tend to think inherent in your reply is an idea that I only see with older developers: that we should actually understand the whole stack. Newer developers are content to let more and more of the development ecosystem be someone else's problem.

So, I empathize strongly, but I think the issue isn't that we need to use prothetics as much as the conventional wisdom is that "that's devops problem."

Re: It's official: developers get better with age. And scarcer.

#137

Post by thesz »

rbanffy wrote: post #103
kmavm wrote: post #37

Since I don't see this specifically addressed in the text: I suspect this is a classic case of survivorship bias. The same way the stock market looks better and better the further back you go, because you aren't tracking the stocks of companies that are no longer in business, developers probably look better and better the further they are into their careers, since all the ones who've fallen by the wayside probably we…

I don't feel any smarter than I were on my 20's. OTOH, software has gotten much more complex. Mastering the Apple II ROM routines is one thing, but understanding how every piece in a complex web application (app server, rdbms, non-relational storage, cache) interact is much harder. After wrapping my brain around some concepts, it feels very thin. We rely on Google and the web to supplement our memories for things tha…

Ho!

At my age of 39 I solve tasks that in my 20's I can't even dream approaching. I attribute it to much higher-level languages I use today (mostly Haskell) and, of course, to experience in various fields.

Re: It's official: developers get better with age. And scarcer.

#138

Post by pnathan »

Revisor wrote: post #82

One could also find another, not so positive trend in the article: The older the developer, the less curious they are Of course you could say it's because the older developers are more experienced. But would that quality per se quell the thirst for new knowledge? Just thinking aloud...

Alternatively, as you get better and deal with complex issues and have more sophisticated thoughts, you realize that SO can't answer the majority of your problems.

That's what I've learned about SO: it's fine for popcorn questions, but for the in-depth knowledge and discussions... meh.

Re: It's official: developers get better with age. And scarcer.

#139

Post by chopsueyar »

rbanffy wrote: post #103
kmavm wrote: post #37

Since I don't see this specifically addressed in the text: I suspect this is a classic case of survivorship bias. The same way the stock market looks better and better the further back you go, because you aren't tracking the stocks of companies that are no longer in business, developers probably look better and better the further they are into their careers, since all the ones who've fallen by the wayside probably we…

I don't feel any smarter than I were on my 20's. OTOH, software has gotten much more complex. Mastering the Apple II ROM routines is one thing, but understanding how every piece in a complex web application (app server, rdbms, non-relational storage, cache) interact is much harder. After wrapping my brain around some concepts, it feels very thin. We rely on Google and the web to supplement our memories for things tha…

cognitive prosthetics

I like that term.

Re: It's official: developers get better with age. And scarcer.

#140

Post by czDev »

divtxt wrote: post #120
rbanffy wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't feel any smarter than I were on my 20's. OTOH, software has gotten much more complex. Mastering the Apple II ROM routines is one thing, but understanding how every piece in a complex web application (app server, rdbms, non-relational storage, cache) interact is much harder. After wrapping my brain around some concepts, it feels very thin. We rely on Google and the web to supplement our memories for things tha…

I find web development less enjoyable than 5 or 10 years ago because of the increasing size and complexity of the stack. At least us old fogies have had the last 15 years to learn web development. How the hell do young programmers learn such a big stack in a few years? I'm guessing half using youthful energy and the other half skipped in blissful ignorance?! :)

That's the point - you don't learn the whole stack, you let your framework manage it.
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