Spain to launch modest trial of four-day working week • Hacker News Board

Re: Spain to launch modest trial of four-day working week

#131

Post by Rule35 » Tue, Mar 16, 2021, 4:35 PM UTC

neilwilson wrote: post #61

arcturus17 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some economists in Spain say that starting from this premise, and trying to apply it universally for the economy may have disastrous results. The problem here is the effect on productivity. While there are some jobs where decreasing 20% of working hours while keeping productivity constant may be perfectly feasible, there are lots of jobs in Spain's precarious service-oriented economy where this is not possible. For e…

"The problem here is the effect on productivity." If you make labour 'reassuringly expensive', then the only way to maintain output is to invest in capital deepening. Which is the only place productivity comes from. Capitalists need to start doing some capitalism.

The primary focus of capital deepening is deep-sixing workers. Capitalists capitalisming looks a lot like robots.

Re: Spain to launch modest trial of four-day working week

#132

Post by Rule35 » Tue, Mar 16, 2021, 4:51 PM UTC

astrange wrote: post #79

Rule35 wrote: post #21

> “The only red lines are that we want to see a true reduction of working hours and no loss of salary or jobs.” And there it is. (The proposal is the government pays a fraction of this for a few years before sticking the companies with this.) It's basically just a minimum wage law but written the other way. This always sticks the bill with the only person actually paying to begin with, the business owner. If society…

> This always sticks the bill with the only person actually paying to begin with, the business owner. If society thinks people should be paid more perhaps it should mandate paying more for the company's products to compensate for making them pay their employees more per hour. You just said the business owner is the "only person paying" and then contradicted yourself by saying "people" pay more. Everyone pays for thin…

> economists don't think it's strictly bad to do this anymore*

Those same educated voices also tend to support UBI and other ... less than fully considered social engineering ideas. When it comes to government mandates I'm cautious, especially because you can't usefully go back. Even if they're a PhD they're in a field where you cannot test your ideas.

If you want to pay a worker more, actually do that. Walk up to a barrista and offer them a monthly cheque to make up the difference between their wage and your proposed minimum. Your vote that Starbucks must pay more usually isn't accompanied with a certain minimum purchase guarantee that they can use to actually fund this.

> You just said the business owner is the "only person paying" and then contradicted yourself by saying "people" pay more. Everyone pays for things because the economy is a cycle.

Not usefully in that sense. I'm the only one paying my rent. You're not doing anything towards it. Even if you shop at my employer and indirectly pay my salary, you aren't putting money towards my rent. I'm the one who makes the food/fun/shelter tradeoff. If there's a slack month or unexpected expenses, I suffer.

If you actually paid the store an extra 15% line-item specifically to use to pay their employees then I would accept that.

Re: Spain to launch modest trial of four-day working week

#133

Post by brnt » Tue, Mar 16, 2021, 5:10 PM UTC

Arete314159 wrote: post #119

arcturus17 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm Spanish and I've lived in Germany, the UK, and in short stints in the US, and some of what you say resonates with me. In particular: > Here work seems to always be some tedious chore that keeps you away from social life This is just one manifestation of what's more generally a very poor work culture, in what amounts to a giant, self-reinforcing negative feedback loop. Management often lacks professionalism, salar…

I'm part Spanish, grew up mostly in the US, but often have to engage with Spain in order to do paperwork. Does anyone who's lived there for a while have any insight on why tasks that I could accomplish in the US in 12 weeks take like 5 years in Spain? Why is every form and document and signature and approval process seemingly arbitrary? Why is the person you need for the next step always on vacation? Is there some ki…

If you hold the US as a paragon of administrative velocity, you haven't completed your tour of countries my friend.

As a Dutchman, who is by no means a fan of the country, can only tremble in horror whenever paperwork abroad had/has to be done. There may be a difference between Spain and the US, it's insignificant between the NL and the rest.

Well, I hear good things about Scandinavian countries too. I haven't had the opportunity yet to work/live there, hope to get around to it though!

Re: Spain to launch modest trial of four-day working week

#134

Post by grillvogel » Tue, Mar 16, 2021, 7:21 PM UTC

sbacic wrote: post #108

arcturus17 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm Spanish and I've lived in Germany, the UK, and in short stints in the US, and some of what you say resonates with me. In particular: > Here work seems to always be some tedious chore that keeps you away from social life This is just one manifestation of what's more generally a very poor work culture, in what amounts to a giant, self-reinforcing negative feedback loop. Management often lacks professionalism, salar…

I don't think this issue is specific to Spain - judging by the rest of the comments and my own personal experience (Croatia) this problem seems endemic to much of southern Europe. I suspect at least part of the issue is due to climate. I wonder if there is a similar trend in the US?

i used to work at an IBM office in the southwest. at the time we were considered lazy and laid back compared to the old school IBM offices back on the east coast

Re: Spain to launch modest trial of four-day working week

#135

Post by Rule35 » Wed, Mar 17, 2021, 6:15 AM UTC

neilwilson wrote: post #128

arcturus17 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure your comment addresses anything I've said, except nitpicking a single sentence and taking it out on a tangent. What kinds of capital deepening can one do for our tourism-oriented and increasingly public-sector-dependent service economy?

If that's your view, then that means that capitalist oriented structures running those operations cannot justify their profit share. Since capital depending - doing more with less - is the only reason they are allowed to take a profit in the first place. We can, of course, move all those operations to the Job Guarantee if that is your view of capitalism. Personally I'm more optimistic about improved methods and machi…

> capitalist oriented structures running those operations cannot justify their profit share

They don't have to justify anything, they're profitable. Out compete them, with your 80% workers, if you think it's a better way.

> Personally I'm more optimistic about improved methods and machinery.

The companies are optimistic about machinery too, as it'll help them achieve the elusive 0% worker. It feels like you're trying to devalue humans out of any possibility of employment, not help them.

Re: Spain to launch modest trial of four-day working week

#136

Post by neilwilson » Wed, Mar 17, 2021, 8:59 AM UTC

Rule35 wrote: post #135

neilwilson wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that's your view, then that means that capitalist oriented structures running those operations cannot justify their profit share. Since capital depending - doing more with less - is the only reason they are allowed to take a profit in the first place. We can, of course, move all those operations to the Job Guarantee if that is your view of capitalism. Personally I'm more optimistic about improved methods and machi…

> capitalist oriented structures running those operations cannot justify their profit share They don't have to justify anything, they're profitable. Out compete them, with your 80% workers, if you think it's a better way. > Personally I'm more optimistic about improved methods and machinery. The companies are optimistic about machinery too, as it'll help them achieve the elusive 0% worker. It feels like you're trying…

"Out compete them, with your 80% workers, if you think it's a better way."

Once there is a guaranteed alternative job available - to balance the power discrepancy - then competition can be turned up to 11. At which point these operations 'profit' will be seen as what it is - under bidding labour in a system that is systemically short of work.

Workers need that 'no deal' option adding. And businesses need the "what about the jobs, can I have a bailout" option removing. Then competition will be 100% fair - and effective. Driving forward the capital improvements we need to have a better standard of living.

Re: Spain to launch modest trial of four-day working week

#137

Post by Rule35 » Wed, Mar 17, 2021, 6:11 PM UTC

neilwilson wrote: post #136

Rule35 wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> capitalist oriented structures running those operations cannot justify their profit share They don't have to justify anything, they're profitable. Out compete them, with your 80% workers, if you think it's a better way. > Personally I'm more optimistic about improved methods and machinery. The companies are optimistic about machinery too, as it'll help them achieve the elusive 0% worker. It feels like you're trying…

"Out compete them, with your 80% workers, if you think it's a better way." Once there is a guaranteed alternative job available - to balance the power discrepancy - then competition can be turned up to 11. At which point these operations 'profit' will be seen as what it is - under bidding labour in a system that is systemically short of work. Workers need that 'no deal' option adding. And businesses need the "what ab…

> And businesses need the "what about the jobs, can I have a bailout" option removing.

Hell yeah. Welfare for business is bad.

> Workers need that 'no deal' option adding.

Well, yes. But to some degree you're supposed to build that for yourself. Without that requirement you have no incentive to save and work smart.

I don't think bosses should have the power (ie, society should disrupt it, you're right) to keep people on the edge of poverty so that they have leverage, but I also don't think people should have much say over their boss other than to refuse the job. Either unbalances the market.

Re: Spain to launch modest trial of four-day working week

#138

Post by arcturus17 » Wed, Mar 17, 2021, 7:15 PM UTC

severino wrote: post #116

arcturus17 wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> regardless of the party in the government I certainly do not miss Rajoy, but I whole-heartedly believe that a social-communist government is possibly the worst alternative to get us out of this hole. We need jobs, a lot of them, not only in the public sector, and I think that our current government is tremendously ill-equipped for this task. Has anyone noticed how members of the government rarely, if ever, talk abo…

> I certainly do not miss Rajoy, but I whole-heartedly believe that a social-communist government is possibly the worst alternative to get us out of this hole. Why is that? We said we needed a new labour law so you can lay off people at no cost, because they said that was the reason the unemployment rate was so high here in Spain. And we did it. And we still have the very same law, nobody is changing it. They also di…

> Of course, calling this government "communist" is a joke in poor taste, but people from outside Spain may believe this country is the new Soviet Union

Many members of the government (eg, Iglesias or Garzón) repeatedly define themselves as communists, though. And they regularly use the term "social-communist" to literally define the government. So maybe they are the ones joking and deep down inside they believe in an innovative market economy, albeit progressive?

> Instead, I think one of the reasons our economy is so vulnerable is because we are so much dependent on tourism and also there seems nobody can innovate and create a business other than a restaurant. But this is hardly our current government's fault.

Because while I agree with the opinion that the government is not at fault for the lack of innovation or productive model in Spain, I seriously doubt a government that is so left-leaning (and in which part is literally communist, and wants the nationalization of many industries) is going to foster an environment for innovation and entrepreneurship...

Re: Spain to launch modest trial of four-day working week

#139

Post by arcturus17 » Wed, Mar 17, 2021, 7:17 PM UTC

pezezin wrote: post #125

arcturus17 wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> regardless of the party in the government I certainly do not miss Rajoy, but I whole-heartedly believe that a social-communist government is possibly the worst alternative to get us out of this hole. We need jobs, a lot of them, not only in the public sector, and I think that our current government is tremendously ill-equipped for this task. Has anyone noticed how members of the government rarely, if ever, talk abo…

> I certainly do not miss Rajoy, but I whole-heartedly believe that a social-communist government... Dude, stop reading La Razón and listening to Marhuenda/Inda/Losantos, the "social-communist" bullshit is beyond ridiculous.

I don't read any of that drivel, this is a term that Garzón or Iglesias themselves repeatedly use. So I guess I just can't take them for their word on that one, and that they're in fact progressive capitalists who believe in private property and have clear ideas on how to make an innovative market economy out of Spain.

Re: Spain to launch modest trial of four-day working week

#140

Post by arcturus17 » Wed, Mar 17, 2021, 7:21 PM UTC

Al-Khwarizmi wrote: post #109

arcturus17 wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> regardless of the party in the government I certainly do not miss Rajoy, but I whole-heartedly believe that a social-communist government is possibly the worst alternative to get us out of this hole. We need jobs, a lot of them, not only in the public sector, and I think that our current government is tremendously ill-equipped for this task. Has anyone noticed how members of the government rarely, if ever, talk abo…

Come on, the government is not "communist" in any practical sense of the word, anymore than the right is "fascist" as people in the left usually call it. Those words work well to inflame the masses and polarize political campaigns but not for serious political analysis. Sure, some individual members of the government (with very limited decision-making power, being the minority members of a coalition) declare themselv…

> with very limited decision-making power, being the minority members of a coalition

You seem to follow Spanish politics, so surely you must have seen how moderates like Calviño are often put in extremely rough spots? The communist wing of the government is not nearly as powerless as you claim to be.

We'll see what comes out of labor reform, for example, but I suspect there won't be any measures that are conducive to the creation of good jobs, or any jobs at all.