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On Being Blacklisted

aaronkunin.medium.com

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Re: On Being Blacklisted

#131

Post by manfredo »

ariabuckles wrote: post #124
jariel wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"but also sends a message to his students: that he doesn't whether they feel safe being there matters, " That is some very serious gaslighting. To suggest that somehow students would be 'unsafe' around writers such as him or his works, is a toxic form of rhetoric. That term - 'unsafe' - used in in an intellectual context such as it is is anti-intellectual and oppressive. There is no 'harm' in his words. Even if the p…

> And FYI nobody is arguing that any real, material history should not be taught. This is in the context of his literature courses. There are so many literary authors that aren't white men, that arguing that he should have the right to decide to only teach works from white men (if he deems them to be the best works), does seem to me like arguing that we shouldn't teach the history of marginalized people. If you only…

> There are so many literary authors that aren't white men, that arguing that he should have the right to decide to only teach works from white men (if he deems them to be the best works), does seem to me like arguing that we shouldn't teach the history of marginalized people.

No, it does not remotely seem like arguing that we shouldn't teach the history of marginalized people. How do you go from "I should be able to decide to only teach works from white men" to "other people shouldn't teach anyone other than white men"? To go from "I should be allowed to _____" to "nobody should do anything except ______" is a massive leap.

A course in classics is going to have overwhelmingly male authors, likely exclusively so. The reality of the ancient Mediterranean was that patriarchy was extensive, and women were not afforded the opportunity to contribute in that space. This is in now way saying that other courses in other fields should feature women or minority authors.

Re: On Being Blacklisted

#132

Post by marshmallow_12 »

monkeypizza wrote: post #113
marshmallow_12 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Abolish is a synonym of cancel. Culture is the product of collective agreements. You Sir, are in fact suggesting we create a cancel, cancel culture. Instead of eradicating the evil, you are embracing it.

Yes, this is a coherent, stable proposal. For a tolerant society to adopt complete tolerance, even of things designed to destroy their society, is unstable. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance

It's a bit of an eye opener. Our supposed moral advancements is merely a part of the human condition, and not a product of it. Essentially, we are guided by principles that we think we are controlling. Wow.

Not that i agree with your conclusions.

Re: On Being Blacklisted

#133

Post by yew »

rayiner wrote: post #117
richardwhiuk wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really. You are basically arguing that anyone who provides a platform for viewpoints, must provide a platform for any viewpoint, no matter how abhorent they (and their readers) might find it.

“Anyone” is doing a lot of work in your sentence. Universities are given a huge amount of special dispensation by society because they of their commitment to free inquiry. A literary magazine at a university should embody those principles. If it doesn’t, then why give them a privileged place in society? Back in the day conservatives alleged that “free inquiry” was a pretext and universities were a Trojan horse for ra…

I wouldn't call expunging racism from society "radical" or incompatible with any inquiry worth making free. If conservatives need to "allege" about that, what more do you need to hear?

Re: On Being Blacklisted

#134

Post by ariabuckles »

manfredo wrote: post #131
ariabuckles wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And FYI nobody is arguing that any real, material history should not be taught. This is in the context of his literature courses. There are so many literary authors that aren't white men, that arguing that he should have the right to decide to only teach works from white men (if he deems them to be the best works), does seem to me like arguing that we shouldn't teach the history of marginalized people. If you only…

> There are so many literary authors that aren't white men, that arguing that he should have the right to decide to only teach works from white men (if he deems them to be the best works), does seem to me like arguing that we shouldn't teach the history of marginalized people. No, it does not remotely seem like arguing that we shouldn't teach the history of marginalized people. How do you go from "I should be able to…

That's fair. I should have said he's arguing for the right to not teach the history of marginalized people, not that he's arguing that others shouldn't (though he does seem to be arguing that others should be allowed to not teach it).

Re: On Being Blacklisted

#135

Post by schoen »

ttt0 wrote: post #114
richardwhiuk wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really. You are basically arguing that anyone who provides a platform for viewpoints, must provide a platform for any viewpoint, no matter how abhorent they (and their readers) might find it.

You said it like it's an unthinkable thing to do, but it used to be a policy - FCC fairness doctrine.

Though the FCC's justification for the Fairness Doctrine was akin to part of their justification for prohibiting profanity in broadcasts: the huge scarcity of broadcast spectrum and the relatively small number of channels that could exist in a particular media market. They never attempted to apply the Fairness Doctrine to media other than licensed broadcast stations, and, when they repealed it, they noted that broadcasters would then have the same editorial freedom as print publishers -- who are allowed to be biased and treat others' viewpoints unfairly.

Re: On Being Blacklisted

#136

Post by bradleyjg »

ariabuckles wrote: post #119
waterhouse wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think what a lot of the commenters are missing is that this article, and statements like "If I must revise my teaching to conform to a popular view of inclusivity that I do not share" have an impact on not just his research, but also sends a message to his students: that he doesn't whether they feel safe being there matters, and that they don't deserve to have representation in studied works. You're making a jump…

I might be making a jump, because I've followed a lot of these discussions over time. To my understanding (and as a disclaimer, I advocate strongly for it), "inclusivity" in general means making an environment safe for people of marginalized backgrounds. So to me, his declaration that inclusivity as a value ought to be up for debate seems to indicate he doesn't think it's a top priority that students of marginalized…

I think what the parent poster is getting at is that many of us are bewildered at the way you are using the word “safe”.

I take it you aren’t saying that students believe that an assailant will be hiding in the classroom with a bat ready to assault them as the enter the classroom.

Rather I take you and others to be using safe to mean something like comfortable. But unsafe and uncomfortable are two different words. There’s rarely or never good cause to make someone feel unsafe, but sometimes being uncomfortable can lead to growth. Or at least people used to believe so.

Re: On Being Blacklisted

#137

Post by Bakary »

konjin wrote: post #56
rsj_hn wrote: post #14

"“we believe the essay does not align with Chicago Review’s editorial and political agenda.”" It's interesting that some academic literary magazines are now being forced to admit they have political agendas, which is a step in the right direction. People like Kunin are the conscience of our generation, daring to stand up to the mobs and tell the truth - a political act that conflicts with the Chicago Review's agenda.…

The hardest thing for my generation to understand is that the politics of our youth are no longer the politics of the present. To quote the many times canceled Orwell: And this tolerance or plain dishonesty means much more than that admiration for the USSR happens to be fashionable at this moment. Quite possibly that particular fashion will not last. For all I know, by the time this book is published my view of the S…

I don't meant this as a personal attack but there is something faintly ironic about this statement

Orwell is pretty the much the one-stop gramophone record for quotes when someone wants to express concern about censorship or authoritarianism in a vague, semi-lyrical way

Re: On Being Blacklisted

#138

Post by refenestrator »

fatbird wrote: post #120
refenestrator wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many degrees of separation can you get in here and still feel justified? Kunin opposed the idea of blacklisting in general, he didn't even endorse any person. So now, for those who refuse to be published in the same magazine as him, the chain goes "unspecified other" -> Kunin didn't disavow -> they can't publish anything where Kunin might also publish? There's not even a specific idea they're condemning besides g…

Kunin opposes blacklisting that resulted from others voting with their feet . He heaps scorn on the editors of the magazine, who have, I think, the best defense of their actions, namely that it was him or them, and they chose them so they could continue publishing. Kunin's target is really the other contributors who effectively strongarmed the editors into ejecting him, and he later in his essay falls back on the old…

It's really funny to me that this is 'inclusivity'. We have a tiny clique of upper-middle-class people who want to control all discourse in the name of 'inclusivity'.

If you're one million percent sure that you're right about everything, that's justifiable. You're maximizing inclusivity. But if you're not?

Re: On Being Blacklisted

#139

Post by rayiner »

yew wrote: post #133
rayiner wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Anyone” is doing a lot of work in your sentence. Universities are given a huge amount of special dispensation by society because they of their commitment to free inquiry. A literary magazine at a university should embody those principles. If it doesn’t, then why give them a privileged place in society? Back in the day conservatives alleged that “free inquiry” was a pretext and universities were a Trojan horse for ra…

I wouldn't call expunging racism from society "radical" or incompatible with any inquiry worth making free. If conservatives need to "allege" about that, what more do you need to hear?

No, but it is radical to do that while redefining “racism” to encompass literally every aspect of existing society radicals don’t like: capitalism, the U.S. Constitution, individualism, being white (“whiteness”), etc.

Re: On Being Blacklisted

#140

Post by murrayh »

This is the paradox of tolerance. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance

Each of Chicago Review's two choices (to publish, or not to publish) will generate disapproval.

My personal view is that deplatforming intolerance is ok -- that the Chicago Review are right to deplatform intolerance.

Was Kunin's article intolerant and who decides? I have no idea, an uninformed opinion at best.

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