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The Covid Zoom Boom Is Reshaping Sign Language

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Re: The Covid Zoom Boom Is Reshaping Sign Language

#131

Post by bluGill »

SamBam wrote: post #79
rblatz wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From my recollection cued speech and signed English both are controversial in the Deaf community. They are seen as clunky and forced on them by the hearing community. I think the biggest issue is that most languages including ASL have about the same informational density for a given unit of time. Whereas Cued Speech and Signed English have significantly lower informational density.

Isn't the purpose of cued speech not to replace ASL/other sign languages, but to add some support for a person who does not know ASL to speak clearly to a deaf person? If you're a teacher or a police officer or someone who needs to talk to all people, including deaf people, wouldn't learning the eight cues be a useful tool, even if you're not going to fully-learn ASL?

Maybe, but I don't see the point. Speaking with your hands is weird no matter what you are doing. Learning ASL signs instead of something else is that much harder, and ASL is a lot richer than either.

Of course I can't claim any ability in ASL. When taking the baby sign language classes my teacher was very insistent that to the baby what sign you use doesn't matter, but we should use ASL signs because learning any other sign isn't any easier, and this way we have a few dozen signs that are actually useful after the baby grows up. Which is the point: if you learn some signs of ASL you can communicate better than pointing. When you learn something else your are just pointing and hoping you are understood.

Re: The Covid Zoom Boom Is Reshaping Sign Language

#132

Post by SEJeff »

spijdar wrote: post #82
willcipriano wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does the language have the sort of precision required to say something like "rotund gentleman" instead? If not I can't really blame someone from saying something in the most polite way a language practically allows.

Based on my very limited experience and the posts above, I'd say sign languages don't really have the luxury of having many "synonyms" with slightly different connotations, at least in the same way you'd list words in a dictionary. jbergstroem mentions "always trying to find the simplest way of explaining yourself", so I think the idea is people just say things how they are, in simple terms. I imagine ideas like poli…

"hear" ASL

Re: The Covid Zoom Boom Is Reshaping Sign Language

#133

Post by tyingq »

_nalply wrote: post #122
tyingq wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd add in a third bullet noting that sign languages generally favor omitting unnecessary grammar, structure, etc. Like "I love you" as [love sign] -> [point at person you love]. Or for example that "very" might exist in a signed language, but isn't often used. Just substituted with a more physically animated/vigorous version of the adjective, or added facial expression.

The thing of omitting grammar: That's simply not true, I am sorry. Signed languages have a complex visual grammar. Words are inflected in many ways. I am a somewhat native speaker of the local signed language, and I sometimes discover that I uttered something I couldn't translate into German (the local oral language) without losing some meaning. This usually concerns dynamics, location and emotion. One example, I exp…

Perhaps there's a better way to characterize it? I'm talking about stuff like this for ASL:

You look surprised => You look surprise

They came here recently => Recent they come

Re: The Covid Zoom Boom Is Reshaping Sign Language

#134

Post by pbhjpbhj »

pessimizer wrote: post #110
rblatz wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So from my memory of ASL in college there was less worry about being rude or not offending. So if you were asked who someone was, you would start with their most identifiable feature. So if they are the only black guy in the room, or the most over weight you’d sign the black guy or the fat guy. Whereas in English it’s basically a joke now that we’d use just about any other descriptor besides those.

I would guess that has more to do with speaking in private rather than anything else. If one knows that the black guy or the fat guy or someone who loves them won't hear them, they'll refer to them however they would like. Same goes for anyone who speaks a minority language; I've had a few very good eastern European and Asian friends who told me later how I was being referred to by somebody who seemed entirely civil…

I don't think so.

My deaf BSL instructor said that it was about being understood clearly, and just about deaf culture. If you're in a room of people signing everyone can see you're saying "who is the fat guy at the bar" so there's no point in being euphemistic. Might be a UK deaf culture thing.

Re: The Covid Zoom Boom Is Reshaping Sign Language

#135

Post by zeroego »

leesalminen wrote: post #69
medstrom wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this occurs more in some countries than others, with low sign language awareness. Maybe the US especially due to monolinguality. It seems people love to assume things about other languages that are false and can be insulting. Like when you say an English sentence to a Mexican who doesn't understand it, and you respond by saying the same thing again but louder and slower. It looks like you think they're dense.…

> Like when you say an English sentence to a Mexican who doesn't understand it, and you respond by saying the same thing again but louder and slower. It looks like you think they're dense. My wife is learning Spanish right now because we are moving to Costa Rica. Her most used phrase is “de espacio, por favor” which means “slowly, please”. She’s able to understand much more of the language when folks slow down and an…

I had a similar experience while learning German. Berliners talk very quickly and I'd frequently request "Sprechen Sie langsam, bitte" aka speak slowly please. Unfortunately they'd usually switch to English after that, but when the speaker would stick it out with me I'd come away feeling like I'd gotten a little better with the language.

Re: The Covid Zoom Boom Is Reshaping Sign Language

#136

Post by bluGill »

_nalply wrote: post #122
tyingq wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd add in a third bullet noting that sign languages generally favor omitting unnecessary grammar, structure, etc. Like "I love you" as [love sign] -> [point at person you love]. Or for example that "very" might exist in a signed language, but isn't often used. Just substituted with a more physically animated/vigorous version of the adjective, or added facial expression.

The thing of omitting grammar: That's simply not true, I am sorry. Signed languages have a complex visual grammar. Words are inflected in many ways. I am a somewhat native speaker of the local signed language, and I sometimes discover that I uttered something I couldn't translate into German (the local oral language) without losing some meaning. This usually concerns dynamics, location and emotion. One example, I exp…

No, it is both. Grammar that is mandatory in English is optional in ASL. At the same time there is a lot of grammar in ASL that covers things that takes several sentences in English to get out.

This isn't unusual. Even in spoken languages the required grammar are often different. Even in English some areas there are some contexts where "the" is mandatory in some geographical areas and not others. Linguists can give you a Phd if you want to study this more.

Re: The Covid Zoom Boom Is Reshaping Sign Language

#137

Post by IanCal »

bluGill wrote: post #43
swsieber wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know what signing is amazing for? Teaching babies to communicate before they have proper vocal control (preverbal is the term I think). We're talking useful communication at under a year. Something like 9-12 months.

Somewhat. Babies do tend to learn a few signs, and it is useful when they can indicate what they need. However as soon as they learn to talk they universally forget everything. I know people fluent in sign (a large part of their job is working with the deaf), and when they sign to babies the babies are like "you idiot: I just heard you talking to someone else so don't insult my intelligence by not talking to me" The…

> However as soon as they learn to talk they universally forget everything.

A ridiculous assertion.

My son knows quite a few signs and often uses them alongside speaking, which can really help when he's struggling to be as clear (e.g. when he's frustrated).

Re: The Covid Zoom Boom Is Reshaping Sign Language

#138

Post by bluGill »

gedy wrote: post #31
mabbo wrote: post #3

Two quick misconceptions to call out for those less familiar with signed languages: 1. ASL is not just English with each word replaced with a sign. It's an incredibly complex language with different grammatical rules, some of which don't have English equivalents. 2. It's incredibly flexible. Many core grammar components will remain consistent, but often if you drive to another city, many words/signs will be different…

Thanks for your explanation, however it left me with additional question as to its value when politicians/government use a sign language interpreter in speeches. If it's so nuanced and regional, wouldn't reading English text translation be better/clearer?

Don't assume all deaf people are good readers. Text is enough different from ASL that learning to read is like learning a foreign language. Some learn to read well, but some do not. If you want the later to understand you, then text is the wrong answer.

Re: The Covid Zoom Boom Is Reshaping Sign Language

#139

Post by cauliflower2718 »

thepete2 wrote: post #5
mabbo wrote: post #3

Two quick misconceptions to call out for those less familiar with signed languages: 1. ASL is not just English with each word replaced with a sign. It's an incredibly complex language with different grammatical rules, some of which don't have English equivalents. 2. It's incredibly flexible. Many core grammar components will remain consistent, but often if you drive to another city, many words/signs will be different…

This is kind of unrelated, but I wonder if a small amount (say 100 signs or so) of sign language (ASL or local equivalent) wouldn't be useful for hearing people in their day-to-day lives. I'm very interested in sign-language, but language being what it is you can't do it alone ...

I was at a (seated) concert once, and the large family next to me would sign to each other to communicate without making noise. Signing has some nice advantages over whispering: you can sign to an entire group at once, but you can only whisper to one person at a time.

Re: The Covid Zoom Boom Is Reshaping Sign Language

#140

Post by _nalply »

tyingq wrote: post #133
_nalply wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing of omitting grammar: That's simply not true, I am sorry. Signed languages have a complex visual grammar. Words are inflected in many ways. I am a somewhat native speaker of the local signed language, and I sometimes discover that I uttered something I couldn't translate into German (the local oral language) without losing some meaning. This usually concerns dynamics, location and emotion. One example, I exp…

Perhaps there's a better way to characterize it? I'm talking about stuff like this for ASL: You look surprised => You look surprise They came here recently => Recent they come

Maybe you meant glosses? Usually they are all written uppercased. However glosses often omit grammar or better said they aren't inflected because they can't capture raised eyebrows and other non-manual information.
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