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Whistleblowers: Software keeping inmates in Arizona prisons beyond release dates

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Re: Whistleblowers: Software keeping inmates in Arizona prisons beyond release dates

#131

When I wanted to have compiled [1] financials, PriceWaterhouseCoopers told me to pick a recognized accounting system, then change the company's business processes to match that. They said absolutely not to go the other way, to try to customize any software to match our business. I think about that every time I read about another government (or private!) company that wastes tens or hundreds of million of dollars (or e…

An alternative is to have the federal government offer the "federal choice" which states and local governments can choose to use instead of rolling out their own.

Re: Whistleblowers: Software keeping inmates in Arizona prisons beyond release dates

#132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1.5 million prisoners in the USA. You want to go through that list, without software?

We're talking about Arizona. And every prison likely can keep track of its own inmates. If they can't, what are they doing running a prison?

The imprisonment data is coordinated between the prison, the police, the prosecution, the public service system and local governments. All of them needs to be up-to-date, or somebody would be screwed in process.

Re: Whistleblowers: Software keeping inmates in Arizona prisons beyond release dates

#133
post #29
post #10

The fact that they appear to have identified individuals who should be released, but have not, due to the software not being updated, is frankly disgusting. I believe holding a person against their will is a criminal act - seems like most of the employees of the Arizona correctional facilities are now guilty of crimes worse than the majority of their inmates.

As an outside observer (European) this seems to be the way the American prison system is run. The inmates are not viewed as humans by the people responsible, enabling horrible conditions. Fixing such an issue should be top priority, and in the meantime, you would revert to pen and paper accounting to ensure the correct release of each prisoner.

> The inmates are not viewed as humans by the people responsible, enabling horrible conditions.

This was not my experience as an inmate in Texas. Actually, we are referred to as "offenders" [0] because the terms "inmate" and "convict" are considered offensive. Staff can get in trouble for using a pejorative word like "inmate". (Not that they never do because quite honestly I don't know anyone that actually finds the word offensive, but it's still not a word you want to say in front of the warden or higher administrators).

The truth is that staff and administrators are human and have diverse viewpoints. Some don't care about the inmates, but some really want to make a difference in the world. The staff are racially diverse, so you get, for example, a black officer that is very tough on black gangs because he thinks they make black people look bad, but then you have black staff that are particularly sympathetic to black offenders. You can't stereotype the staff—they're just too different.

They're also paranoid about legal liability, so they are pretty careful about avoiding things that could potentially expose them to a lawsuit. It's just like any other large bureaucracy.

> in the meantime, you would revert to pen and paper accounting to ensure the correct release of each prisoner.

Per the article, they are in fact manually computing each prisoner's projected release date:

> In the meantime, Lamoreaux confirmed the “data is being calculated manually and then entered into the system.” Department sources said this means “someone is sitting there crunching numbers with a calculator and interpreting how each of the new laws that have been passed would impact an inmate.”

[0] https://live.staticflickr.com/2048/2235184432_47cfa473bb_b.j...

Re: Whistleblowers: Software keeping inmates in Arizona prisons beyond release dates

#134
post #20

This is an outrage. It is also a perfect example of how software is used to create increasingly more elaborate and faceless bureaucracies that force individuals to spend more and more time contending with them. Somehow software has become the ultimate vehicle for bureaucratic violence. Software is simultaneously infallible and the perfect scapegoat. The inmate who lost their phone privileges for 30 days is an example…

We know exactly how to fix it. Our cowardly politicians and toothless regulatory agencies are not up for the challenge. For every piece of software that can directly and materially harm someone's life like this, there should be a chain of responsibility. And within that chain, there should be legal recourse and, in most cases, penal consequences, especially in the case of inadequate software quality/testing/validatio…

> Our cowardly politicians and toothless regulatory agencies are not up for the challenge.

Because their constituents want people to be punished and if the inmates have to suffer a little extra so be it, "they shouldn't have committed a crime."

Our society is severely lacking in empathy.

Re: Whistleblowers: Software keeping inmates in Arizona prisons beyond release dates

#135
post #20

This is an outrage. It is also a perfect example of how software is used to create increasingly more elaborate and faceless bureaucracies that force individuals to spend more and more time contending with them. Somehow software has become the ultimate vehicle for bureaucratic violence. Software is simultaneously infallible and the perfect scapegoat. The inmate who lost their phone privileges for 30 days is an example…

We know exactly how to fix it. Our cowardly politicians and toothless regulatory agencies are not up for the challenge. For every piece of software that can directly and materially harm someone's life like this, there should be a chain of responsibility. And within that chain, there should be legal recourse and, in most cases, penal consequences, especially in the case of inadequate software quality/testing/validatio…

Or things don't get much better, and management finds a way to make it someone else's problem. Do you think it's the CEO or the people making these decisions that will be locked up? We'll just be arresting whatever yes men show up to be the pawn in the stupid game someone else architected.

More people working with a gun to their head. I'd rather the gun be pointed at the person who already has a gun pointed at me, instead of both barrels facing in my direction.

Re: Whistleblowers: Software keeping inmates in Arizona prisons beyond release dates

#136
Reminds me of Russia. There's your release date... and then there's your court date. You aren't released until the court date after your release date, and without a bribe that could be years. You might never get out.

I haven't been there in a while, but this is how it was when I lived in Moscow.

Re: Whistleblowers: Software keeping inmates in Arizona prisons beyond release dates

#137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We know exactly how to fix it. Our cowardly politicians and toothless regulatory agencies are not up for the challenge. For every piece of software that can directly and materially harm someone's life like this, there should be a chain of responsibility. And within that chain, there should be legal recourse and, in most cases, penal consequences, especially in the case of inadequate software quality/testing/validatio…

Yeah but the cost of that chain will also rise. If I'm (or my company is) personally on the hook for bugs, then I'm going to adopt a NASA-like software quality regimen, pushing up the cost of the product. Every single part of the software stack below me, from hardware, OS, compiler toolchain, disavows responsibility so if I have to absorb all the risk, the product is going to be mind bogglingly expensive.

I have to say that sounds exactly how this kind of software should be built.

We're not talking about the newest social media hype. This software actually matters. Specially since today most of these bureaucratic processes can't be done without these softwares.

Re: Whistleblowers: Software keeping inmates in Arizona prisons beyond release dates

#138
I love how “mistakes” are often in your adversary’s favor, like when I canceled a gym membership and they continued to charge me for a year because of a “glitch”. Of course mistakes like these have nothing to do with software but with intentional policy decisions which can be made plausibility deniable due to software bugs.

Re: Whistleblowers: Software keeping inmates in Arizona prisons beyond release dates

#139
post #20

This is an outrage. It is also a perfect example of how software is used to create increasingly more elaborate and faceless bureaucracies that force individuals to spend more and more time contending with them. Somehow software has become the ultimate vehicle for bureaucratic violence. Software is simultaneously infallible and the perfect scapegoat. The inmate who lost their phone privileges for 30 days is an example…

> The computer is right in the sense that its decision cannot be undone, and solely to blame since no human can undo its edict or be held accountable, apparently.

This is why penalties are such an important part of the feedback loop. Obviously we can't go back in time and restore someone's phone privileges, but we can award monetary damages for the mistake.

Monetary damages alone won't discourage this behavior, though, as ultimately taxpayers foot the bill. There also must be some degree of accountability for those in charge of the system. Software can't become a tool for dodging accountability. Those in charge of implementing the software, providing the inputs, and managing the outputs must be held accountable for related mistakes.

> There was an Ask HN question the other day where the poster asked if the software we are building is making the world a better place. There were hardly any replies at all.

Few Ask HN questions get many responses. This is also a loaded question, as HN is notorious for nit-picking every response and putting too much emphasis on the downsides. For example, I know farmers who have increased their farm productivity massively using modern hardware and software. However, if I posted that it would inevitably draw concerns about replacing human jobs, right-to-repair issues, and other issues surrounding the space. The world is definitely better off for having more efficient and productive farming techniques, freeing most of us up to do things other than farm.

However, all new advances bring a different set of problems. Instead of trying to force everything into broad categories of better or worse I think it's important to acknowledge that technology makes the world different. Different is a combination of better and worse. The modern world has different problems than we did 100 years ago, but given the choice I wouldn't choose to roll back to the pre-computer era.

> It certainly seems that way reading articles like this.

Both news and social media have a strong bias toward articles that spark anger or outrage. For me, the whole world stops feeling like a dumpster fire when I disconnect from news and social media for a while. I'm looking forward to the post-COVID era where we can get back to interacting with each other in person rather than gathering around a constant stream of negative stories on social media.

Re: Whistleblowers: Software keeping inmates in Arizona prisons beyond release dates

#140
post #20

This is an outrage. It is also a perfect example of how software is used to create increasingly more elaborate and faceless bureaucracies that force individuals to spend more and more time contending with them. Somehow software has become the ultimate vehicle for bureaucratic violence. Software is simultaneously infallible and the perfect scapegoat. The inmate who lost their phone privileges for 30 days is an example…

We know exactly how to fix it. Our cowardly politicians and toothless regulatory agencies are not up for the challenge. For every piece of software that can directly and materially harm someone's life like this, there should be a chain of responsibility. And within that chain, there should be legal recourse and, in most cases, penal consequences, especially in the case of inadequate software quality/testing/validatio…

There is a chain. There is legal recourse. And there are considerations in government IT that you would not believe and they are incredibly difficult to deal with on minimal resources. It has to be harder than the private sector and this application isn't any different than buggy mainframe software run by major banks. It sits and gets crufty.
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