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Open source chess developers warn about a commercial engine based on Stockfish

lichess.org

131–136 of 136 posts

Re: Open source chess developers warn about a commercial engine based on Stockfish

#131

ITT: People missing the point by making it about software licenses, when the real issue is lying about the product. ChessBase could easily comply with any open source license by linking the full source code, including the method they used to generate NN weights (if they think the license applies here as well), in a footnote. It would still be a scam, because their claims of superiority, originality ("almost from scra…

False claims of authorship (essentially plagiarism) are not entirely outside of the domain of copyright.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attribution_(copyright)

For instance, let's look at the BSD license. It requires copyright notices in source code to be preserved. That means that it reserves the attribution right.

The original license required them in executable code; the two-clause version relaxes it; it doesn't demand any expression of attribution in the compiled code.

However, it does not appear to fully waive the attribution right; it requires the copyright notices and license clauses to remain in the source code. The compiled code is still the original author's copyright; nothing in the license says that it isn't.

If someone claims they developed it, it's infringement on the attribution copyright, even though they have the license-granted right to redistribute the code without making such deceptive claims.

IANAL, but if you're going to plagiarize, I suspect the safest bet is to pick something that has lapsed into the public domain, not something with copyrights and licenses in it.

Re: Open source chess developers warn about a commercial engine based on Stockfish

#132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's nothing incorrect or even controversial about what you're saying. It could be your tone, but I suspect that if you share these opinions during peak west coast hours, e.g. 10am - 7pm pacific time, you're likely to get more upvotes and a more receptive response. There is an odd pattern I've observed where my opinionated comments get a lot of upvotes during the day and evening, and then I wake up the next day to…

Huh, interesting observation, will keep that in mind, thank you. Basically people build their own bubbles everywhere. If you are the one to poke it, you better prepare for the backlash, I learn once more. I had a hunch initially though, that I would get downvoted for the attempt to distinguish between free and open source though, just like the previous times. However, if I start to self-censor, just because of downvo…

I think anyone would be massively downvoted and flagged whatever the subject, if they talk like you have on this page, going on about how and why you're being downvoted and how people are idiots who should read your noble words more carefully etc. For example

> Can you please _read_ what is written and consider it, before writing things, that I already know might be true? ... Ah, you mean _free_ software. Why not be more specific and say that in the first place? ... Would you please read exactly what I wrote, and not go and interpret things and then make claims? ... It seems impossible to have a discussion about this on HN, without being downvoted into oblivion. Obviously there is a rather big population on HN, which does not understand the differences of the two and feels like they need to downvote any comment, that tries to differentiate or point to imprecision in wording. ... Basically people build their own bubbles everywhere. If you are the one to poke it, you better prepare for the backlash, I learn once more.

All this adds less than nothing to HN, breaks the guidelines in several ways, and everyone is the poorer for having read them. Aside from the unbearable, self-important whining and pouting, it's not so much what you said as how you say it. It seems common to then create a conspiracy theory where it's all about the what, where downvotes somehow just go to show the writer was right. Even if you were 100% right on this page and everyone else 100% wrong, that's no excuse at all to write as you have. And if you are trying to persuade, ranting at people like that seems the worst possible way.

Re: Open source chess developers warn about a commercial engine based on Stockfish

#133
post #114
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FYI the lichess mobile apps have been abandoned in favour of the web view, if I recall correctly.

The iOS app got an update just a week ago.

I didn’t realise! My info is obviously outdated. Good to know.

Re: Open source chess developers warn about a commercial engine based on Stockfish

#134
post #21
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FYI the lichess mobile apps have been abandoned in favour of the web view, if I recall correctly.

Website is perhaps recommended, but the app still works great and is updated from time to time.

Oh that’s good to know. I just be running on outdated information.

Re: Open source chess developers warn about a commercial engine based on Stockfish

#135
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's an explanation here: https://www.chessprogramming.org/Stockfish_NNUE It uses clever integer arithmetic in the neural network, so you don't need a monster GPU to get good performance. I believe as of now it's using both the nn and the classic heuristic-based system for different situations.

It doesn't answer any of my questions, though. In the end, it doesn't matter how exactly that NN works, in terms of architecture, weights, framework, etc. Given there is a common API, one position evaluation module can be used as a drop-in-replacement for some other implementation of position evaluation module. I mean, it kinda made sense that Leela was a different project, because it wasn't clear back then if a comm…

Stockfish has two key components:

(1) an evaluation function, that quantifies black/white advantage in a chess position.

(2) a search algorithm, that iteratively checks move sequences from a starting position using (1) and returns a recommendation of the best move to play.

Historically (1) was handcrafted, but it recently switched to a 'NNUE' neural network architecture (now it using different evaluation functions depending on how balanced the position is).

This is a good video if you want to understand how Stockfish works.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUyURF1Tqvg

"But if it turns out to be that heuristics-based approach has lost to NN, it isn't that clear anymore why these have to be 2 separate projects. At least, in terms of the rest of the engine."

Leela's evaluation function is a deep neural network, inference can only be carried out efficiently using GPU, whilst the Stockfish system has been optimised for a CPU-based computer architecture. The innovation of NNUE is that inference can be performed efficiently on a CPU, partly because the network is much smaller, and partly because the architecture is designed to be efficient at recomputing evaluations of only a single piece has changed.

Re: Open source chess developers warn about a commercial engine based on Stockfish

#136
ChessBase just posted a new article by A. Silver at

https://en.chessbase.com/post/how-a-neural-network-is-made

where the author tries to argue that doubling the neural network size in StockFish makes for an appreciable strength increase. However, only blitz results are shown. Looking at http://computerchess.org.uk/ccrl/4040/ we see Fat Fritz being only 2 ELO stronger than SF at blitz while losing out on longer time controls. This questionable tradeoff makes for a very poor excuse to charge $100 versus the free SF.

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