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Personal experiences bridge moral and political divides better than facts

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Re: Personal experiences bridge moral and political divides better than facts

#131
post #34
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In 1980 newspapers were where >50% of advertising dollars were spent, now it's going to nothing - and - they have to fight for every little click using click bait. You can see the natural progression towards hyper bifurcated viewpoints.

As long as we're talking about objective facts, I'll add that "Going to nothing" means going from $25B/y down to $5B/y, which is a huge drop - but also $5B/y. It's continuing to trend downward, so "going to nothing" is not a clearly false summary, but we might as well be specific Source: https://www.statista.com/chart/20244/estimated-print-adverti...

Your chart literally shows a line over a decade 'going very quickly towards $0'.

Re: Personal experiences bridge moral and political divides better than facts

#132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In many cases, there is direct, tangible existential crisis at stake when aggregated across all the individual disagreements. The rise of modern white supremacy, fascism, insurrection, environmental devastation, harm and denial of basic rights to trans people, and so on. If in every individual case, you leave it unchecked and figure “whatever, they can just believe whatever they want, who cares” then it adds up to ri…

> to the point now where it really, actually is true that “mundane” day to day problems for people actually tie in to serious existential problems that have to be collectively dealt with. The only thing this applies to is global warming. It is not an existential threat for Bob to think there was election fraud during the Trump election anymore than Ted the Bernie supporter to think the election was stolen from him tw…

[deleted]

Re: Personal experiences bridge moral and political divides better than facts

#133
post #30
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In 1980 newspapers were where >50% of advertising dollars were spent, now it's going to nothing - and - they have to fight for every little click using click bait. You can see the natural progression towards hyper bifurcated viewpoints.

If they were just smaller that would be one thing, but the change in what they get paid for is bigger, I think. A paper supported by the big department store's ads is incentivised to be broad, because the store wants to sell to everyone. Likewise a paper supported classified and by sunday realtor adds -- nobody wants to sell their house exclusively to members of some fringe, they want the widest distribution. But a p…

Unfortunately not, as the numbers are already on the table.

People don't need to pay for news, so they generally won't.

The smaller publications are all getting wiped out, NYT and a few others will remain paywalled in a smaller state of affairs, and that's it.

Re: Personal experiences bridge moral and political divides better than facts

#134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>false realities Or just other people's realities. You mention BLM riots, which affected me a great deal; tens of millions in damages to my city, destruction of local landmarks, one of the teachers in my local school district was arrested for assaulting a state politician for recording them burning a police car, and to top it off, they smashed the pharmacy where I get my wife's medicine, so she had to go without for…

I am sorry you feel this way, and I hope you will find a way past the biases that are preventing you from accepting the facts.

Please don't cross into personal attack in HN comments. That's not allowed here and we ban accounts that do it.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Personal experiences bridge moral and political divides better than facts

#135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s not much of a point. It’s really just you being on the demonstrably wrong side of actual facts, but acting like your extreme and indefensible take deserves equal validity or ontological status as a “right” belief, but it completely and unequivocally doesn’t. You wouldn’t be saying this stuff to BLM supporters, only an echo chamber filled with your non-fact-based alternate world. There’s a complete difference o…

I hope you understand how unreasonable you sound to me. You're telling me that what I both saw and experienced, with verified fact and video evidence, isn't real . Your conviction that you know more about me and my life, than me, and your insistence on how invalid it is, makes you sound, frankly, like some sort of political zealot. I tend not to waste my time convincing other people of things to this degree. I will s…

Please do not perpetuate flamewars on HN and do not cross into personal attack yourself. It's not what this site is for and it's no ok here.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Personal experiences bridge moral and political divides better than facts

#136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope you understand how unreasonable you sound to me. You're telling me that what I both saw and experienced, with verified fact and video evidence, isn't real . Your conviction that you know more about me and my life, than me, and your insistence on how invalid it is, makes you sound, frankly, like some sort of political zealot. I tend not to waste my time convincing other people of things to this degree. I will s…

What you are saying is simply not ok. If your take away of your experience led you to believe BLM is responsible for significant violence, that is a manifestation of problems with you and your beliefs, not an accurate fact-based conclusion drawn from a legitimate interpretation of the BLM movement or any experience of BLM protests. You saying that I sound unreasonable by not letting your shit slide doesn’t change any…

Please stop.

Re: Personal experiences bridge moral and political divides better than facts

#137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you are saying is simply not ok. If your take away of your experience led you to believe BLM is responsible for significant violence, that is a manifestation of problems with you and your beliefs, not an accurate fact-based conclusion drawn from a legitimate interpretation of the BLM movement or any experience of BLM protests. You saying that I sound unreasonable by not letting your shit slide doesn’t change any…

I'm confused... it's verifiable fact... insurance claims from the riots are between $1-2 billion in damages... dozens of people died and between just a few cities thousands of police were injured, who knows how many protestors and bystanders... support for the movement dropped rapidly once things escalated... these are the facts. How can you look at this, and when someone says they witnessed just a small piece of it,…

Please stop.

Re: Personal experiences bridge moral and political divides better than facts

#138
I keep on feeling like I'm following the argument, but then I keep stumbling across the "supporting moral beliefs with facts" part, and it just seems like it's missing something basic.

You can't ever "prove" moral statements just with facts to begin with, that's the whole point of Hume's Guillotine or the is-ought problem. A moral statement with supporting facts is always, by definition, going to also have moral statements supporting it as well, and it's turtles all the way down; the moral statement is ultimately going to be resting on at least one "moral axiom" aka value aka opinion. So of course focusing on facts isn't going to be wholly convincing.

And personal subjective experience is an appeal to emotion. Those are convincing in the moment, but they're rather ephemeral. Any moral conclusion needs to be recognized for what it is; if the reasoning is valid, it rests upon values that might just be different than yours.

One anecdote... I recently had an extremely disappointing multi-day discussion with an old friend who I discovered attended the insurrection. (Did not enter, but made it to the Capitol steps.) I was at first shocked and dismayed, but then through the bonds of our friendship we were able to empathize with each other's emotional experience, why his community was important to him, etc. We thought afterward that maybe we really would be able to have a respectful exchange of views. But then after that it was just disappointment again - it became clear that he just wasn't going to let go of the belief that it was all staged by Antifa, no matter how much I disproved his various meme jpgs. So at least in that case, that intermediate phase of sharing personal subjective experience only really went so far. (We're not in touch anymore.)

Re: Personal experiences bridge moral and political divides better than facts

#139

What bridges divides the best is unfortunately a common enemy that has agency, which unites previously warring factions against a common outgroup. This is the unfortunate reality of our tribal brains. Just look at how this whole GME episode (common villain - hedge funds) has brought the US left and right closer together (even though the gulf remains large) than they've been in years. COVID was a missed opportunity, w…

Having a “common enemy” may be effective in bridging old divides, but it also creates a new divide. Having the common enemy of Japan in WWII was effective in uniting the US nation, but it also resulted in the persecution Japanese Americans.

Someone close to me runs a hedge fund - I guess that makes him the bad guy somehow, the “common enemy.” He’s a one man operation working from home. He made a bad judgement call and shorted too much GME. Now his personal financial stability has been rocked. WSB really showed him. They really defeated those evil hedge fund managers.

Re: Personal experiences bridge moral and political divides better than facts

#140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a notable difference between: 1) a media outlet that repeats government lies about why we are fighting a war (or how it is going) 2) a media outlet that ignorantly repeats mistruths that are present in the (sub)culture 3) a media outlet that makes up its own lies We used to mostly have a mixture of 1 & 2, but we now have to contend with (3) as well.

In the early 2000s I went to “the south” for the first time, and on the news there was a story about a suspicious hanging of a black man ruled suicide, but his hands were tied behind his back and was dating the sheriff’s white daughter. Found out a decade later that story never happened, and it was a big enough deal for it to be in the list of urban legends and a controversy of how the news decided to report it at th…

It seems as if your story corresponds with my (2), not my (3) ?
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