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Storming Reddit's Moat

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Re: Storming Reddit's Moat

#131

Post by fjabre »

dwohnitmok wrote: post #120
fjabre wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I created another account. Logged in. Forgot I was logged in on another account. Forgot I got banned in that sub ages ago. But not Reddit. Reddit mods don't forget. Reddit gives them the tools they need to sniff you out. Kinda creepy reddit has become.

The whole concept of a ban is to follow a person not an account though... This has been true for every single forum I've ever frequented (including HN). The fact that this isn't always true is due to an (necessarily for both ethical and technological reasons) imperfect implementation.

It's pretty terrible they would go these lengths to ban an individual for disagreeing with them politically.

The punishment does not fit the crime. I think it's disgusting that they are sniffing out IPs for such low level offenses.

I made no threats. I simply disagreed with the wrong person on r/politics.

Re: Storming Reddit's Moat

#132

Post by fjabre »

abcdjdjd wrote: post #79
brodouevencode wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gave up on reddit a long time ago because of the moderation problems.

Curious, what alternatives have you found that are similar to what reddit used to be (besides this site)? Also, what alternative sites have you found replaced Reddit for you, even if they are not similar to what Reddit once was?

Ruqqus.com but unfortunately still small. And also infected. I've been on Shroomery lately and I really like that forum.

I think the concept of Karma points is bullshit and punitive. It makes people negative. PG should know that by now and so should Reddit. Karma is inherently toxic.

Anything that encourages vanity is. And karma encourages it more than anything. As do likes / dislikes. Numbers of votes. Numbers of likes. It's all the same. People competing for attention.

And justified by an angry mob because Karma.

Re: Storming Reddit's Moat

#133

Post by afavour »

fakedang wrote: post #128
afavour wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The mods really have no reason removing posts, outside of clear violating posts that may break laws, since the users can choose what they want to see with the upvote and downvote button. I have to disagree. My counterpoint would be the AskHistorians subreddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/ Admittedly, I'm a history nerd, but it's probably the most interesting subreddit I've found yet. And it's full of del…

Thousands of data points suggest GP's claim, and you counter it with one example? /r/AskHistorians is one of the more unique subreddits, in that it has evolved to become what reddit envisioned a subreddit to be. But running counter to that are a thousand other country subreddits, where if you don't hold a hard line (lefty) view to politics, you will get banned. I have seen Labour shills with premium reddit accounts a…

"Thousands of data points" sounds awfully scientific. Can you show me the dataset? Or are you using the word "data" in a more abstract sense here?

I'm not well versed enough to know if what you say about /r/uk or /r/europe is true, but I'm quite sure /r/askhistorians is not the only well run subreddit on the site. You're just picking examples of subreddits you say are badly run and using them as evidence that all other subs should suffer because of them. Doesn't sound scientific at all.

> They should not even get filters imo. If it makes their job harder, then so be it.

> That being said, one sub that I've found really nicely monitored is the r/casualuk sub. Politics is a strict no no, and they have some sort of bot to filter out such content based on keywords.

You don't see the incoherence in these two statements? It sounds a lot like your actual complaint here is that you don't like perceived persecution of your personal politics, and if moderation doesn't touch that then you have no problem with it at all.

Re: Storming Reddit's Moat

#134

Post by sellyme »

fjabre wrote: post #131
dwohnitmok wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole concept of a ban is to follow a person not an account though... This has been true for every single forum I've ever frequented (including HN). The fact that this isn't always true is due to an (necessarily for both ethical and technological reasons) imperfect implementation.

It's pretty terrible they would go these lengths to ban an individual for disagreeing with them politically. The punishment does not fit the crime. I think it's disgusting that they are sniffing out IPs for such low level offenses. I made no threats. I simply disagreed with the wrong person on r/politics.

> I think it's disgusting that they are sniffing out IPs for such low level offenses.

Moderators on Reddit have absolutely zero access to IP addresses. You are misinformed.

Re: Storming Reddit's Moat

#135

Post by intended »

fjabre wrote: post #126
intended wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love these conversations. As I've said in about 3 other places now - these are the side effects of automation. It didn't use to be like this because it was not possible - and reddit was in many ways MUCH worse. You couldn't ban known bigots or racists because they would be back with an alt. The presence of harassment and hate speech has a chilling effect on normal users - they aren't here to engage or fight nazism.…

I'm obviously not arguing for zero moderation. You would trade one Nazi for another. I believe you are incorrect. That's what the downvote button is for. What good is karma is it's not adhered to? If you can just remove things because you disagree with them? Perhaps you should read Aesop's fable: The Wind and the Sun. I believe you would have something to learn from this fable about motivating people in the right dir…

I addressed what happened to the downvote button elsewhere:

---------

I recently went through some old logs and discussions from 7/8 years ago. People actually talked about how important it was to upvote content and follow rediquette.

That discussion died because you have to enforce rediquette and the "honor code" fails when people see that abusing the code goes unpunished. This means that upvote downvote become like/dislike.

To me this implies that if you want to make upvotes work, then you need to select your community for rule compliance.

Re: Storming Reddit's Moat

#136

Post by fjabre »

sellyme wrote: post #134
fjabre wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's pretty terrible they would go these lengths to ban an individual for disagreeing with them politically. The punishment does not fit the crime. I think it's disgusting that they are sniffing out IPs for such low level offenses. I made no threats. I simply disagreed with the wrong person on r/politics.

> I think it's disgusting that they are sniffing out IPs for such low level offenses. Moderators on Reddit have absolutely zero access to IP addresses. You are misinformed.

And the robo mod? The auto-ban?

They have zero access to IPs too right?

Mods human or otherwise is what I'm referring to.

Re: Storming Reddit's Moat

#137

Post by fjabre »

intended wrote: post #135
fjabre wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm obviously not arguing for zero moderation. You would trade one Nazi for another. I believe you are incorrect. That's what the downvote button is for. What good is karma is it's not adhered to? If you can just remove things because you disagree with them? Perhaps you should read Aesop's fable: The Wind and the Sun. I believe you would have something to learn from this fable about motivating people in the right dir…

I addressed what happened to the downvote button elsewhere: --------- I recently went through some old logs and discussions from 7/8 years ago. People actually talked about how important it was to upvote content and follow rediquette. That discussion died because you have to enforce rediquette and the "honor code" fails when people see that abusing the code goes unpunished. This means that upvote downvote become like…

I appreciate that you've framed a logical argument. There is definitely some sound logic in what you are saying.

I think of it a bit differently.

Reddit could have its 10 commandments and adhere to that. That would be clear and transparent and it should apply both to mods and users alike. There should be no cider house rules. A community is given power by its userbase. Mods should respect their userbase more than they do.

Mods can simply not be trusted to be good faith actors. They constantly abuse their power and Reddit enables it. They are encouraged by the (cult)ture there.

Every mod is free to act as they wish and Reddit will support it. They act like bullies is more like it. Do as I say not as I do.

I then take a step back and wonder. Are crowds truly wise? Or are we simply watching groupthink play out at massive scale?

The crowd is not a crowd anymore. It is a herd.

Re: Storming Reddit's Moat

#138

Post by fakedang »

afavour wrote: post #133
fakedang wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thousands of data points suggest GP's claim, and you counter it with one example? /r/AskHistorians is one of the more unique subreddits, in that it has evolved to become what reddit envisioned a subreddit to be. But running counter to that are a thousand other country subreddits, where if you don't hold a hard line (lefty) view to politics, you will get banned. I have seen Labour shills with premium reddit accounts a…

"Thousands of data points" sounds awfully scientific. Can you show me the dataset? Or are you using the word "data" in a more abstract sense here? I'm not well versed enough to know if what you say about /r/uk or /r/europe is true, but I'm quite sure /r/askhistorians is not the only well run subreddit on the site. You're just picking examples of subreddits you say are badly run and using them as evidence that all oth…

I was using data in the abstract.

AskHistorians is still a niche sub for history nerds, and is well run, like most of the niche subs. I don't disagree, reddit is my goto for niche topics.

But if you look at all major country subs, or major subs such as politics, news, world news, etc., all are badly run, with a hard bent to the left.

> It sounds a lot like your actual complaint here is that you don't like perceived persecution of your personal politics, and if moderation doesn't touch that then you have no problem with it at all.

Ah, how nice to toss baseless allegations at me. For one, I do stand aligned with most subs' political views. But I also stand for letting the other side state their views politely without demagoguery. I do not agree with subs brigading users who come from a different political shade, and have even taken the hammer from the mods for pointing out their hypocrisy in implementing the same. It doesn't take an idiot to see how neutral country subs have been taken over by a lot of far-left or far-right premium accounts, presumably paid for by party funds (I know a bunch of r/uk mods who are part of Momentum, the far-left branch within Labour, for instance). There isn't a place for centrist leaning folks on reddit anywhere on the main subs.

Not to mention the effective dictatorships that mods run, regardless of political leaning: you call out a mod for partiality and/or bias or bad behavior, instaban.

Re: Storming Reddit's Moat

#139

Post by intended »

fjabre wrote: post #137
intended wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I addressed what happened to the downvote button elsewhere: --------- I recently went through some old logs and discussions from 7/8 years ago. People actually talked about how important it was to upvote content and follow rediquette. That discussion died because you have to enforce rediquette and the "honor code" fails when people see that abusing the code goes unpunished. This means that upvote downvote become like…

I appreciate that you've framed a logical argument. There is definitely some sound logic in what you are saying. I think of it a bit differently. Reddit could have its 10 commandments and adhere to that. That would be clear and transparent and it should apply both to mods and users alike. There should be no cider house rules. A community is given power by its userbase. Mods should respect their userbase more than the…

I wish this were possible too.

I want to engage with my users and explain things. But look at this conversation, it is going to take me hours to walk through the whole thing with you, and I am luckily a policy/forum history wonk.

I thrive on figuring this stuff out.

Doing this for ALL users who are angry or disagree with our moderation? Goddamn man, this is a volunteer role, and we are already tired from dealing with even worse users.

While you may respect your users as community members, on moderation your knowledge and peoples assumptions diverge far too much. Which means you stop taking them seriously.

It sucks, it creates a wall between users and mods, and a sense of working with lords and ladies. Most mods don’t want it, but its fated to happen.

I honestly urge everyone who is unhappy with moderation to try it out themselves. I think there is no faster way for people to start working on this problem than having their own experience to drive new solutions.

Re: Storming Reddit's Moat

#140

Post by enkienki »

The only thing I see reddit as being useful for is its oddly specific questions.

The mentality on that site is "support everything as long as it follows our values as a whole" so you'll see a bunch of a random questions being answered relatively well, personally helping me with those random things I know nothing about.

As a normal place to be though? It's brainwashing. Most people don't spend enough time on these sites to realize but I've worked a job where I had a solid 3 hours out of every day to browse. It's quite literally the same opinions being held at the top of the comment section. If your opinion isn't in line with the standard, it's downvoted, regardless of your fact behind it.

For example, I've had an argument with someone about anxiety and they described their issue as mentally debilitating. They really couldn't handle chatting with someone online, let alone talking with people. I have no issue with that but I did point out that we've been arguing back and forth for maybe 5-6 posts now and they have been growing with aggressiveness. Over this argument, I received close to 100 downvotes, then got banned from the community.

The initial post? It was about a drug to treat anxiety and how groundbreaking it was going to be. I mentioned in my post that, coming from a family of pharmacists and seeing effects firsthand, I know of a lot of people who get significantly worse because of drugs like this. Specifically mentioning that you need to get tested in multiple ways before something like this should be considered (talking about the effects of a similar drug for depression).

Socially it's a terrible place to be. Factually, quite interesting if you ignore karma (but they make it really hard to ignore karma).

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