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Cabal: A peer-to-peer, off-grid, community-first, hackable chat platform

cabal.chat

131–140 of 337 posts

Re: Cabal: A peer-to-peer, off-grid, community-first, hackable chat platform

#131

For clarification: The 1st amendment ensures that the government may not stop you from saying what you want. This is a separate issue from private companies removing/banning you. Each company has their own right and freedom to be as dickish as they want with regard to deleting your account etc - but that is not related to the 1st.

No, it isn't. There's already precedents for what businesses can and cannot prevent you from doing. If, for instance, you think a business should be compelled to bake a cake with a certain message on it, then you can't make the argument that there should be no regulation on how much a business can censor its users.

That's not the only example. There's extensive case law that establishes how both governments and businesses have to either allow or curtail speech under certain conditions. A business can't legally compel you to do say something or wear a piece of clothing in a way that discriminates against you. A sex shop can't just open anywhere because, while it's been argued that they should be allowed as a form of free expression, they tend not to be considered as such under the spirit of the law. A person can be held responsible for the aftermath of shouting "fire" in a crowded room, even though this speech is superficially supported by the first amendment. Point being, we make decisions about freedom of speech that don't necessarily follow the letter of the constitution or stay within the bounds of the government.

Freedom of speech isn't just a law. It's a social principle upon which America was founded. If all meaningful communication is dominated by too-big-to-fail businesses with AI that can scour all correspondence, a reality we are rapidly approaching, then freedom of speech becomes meaningless. The situation becomes worse when these companies are all politically aligned with the regime. This is why we can't ignore how private companies regulate communication through their systems.

Re: Cabal: A peer-to-peer, off-grid, community-first, hackable chat platform

#132

For clarification: The 1st amendment ensures that the government may not stop you from saying what you want. This is a separate issue from private companies removing/banning you. Each company has their own right and freedom to be as dickish as they want with regard to deleting your account etc - but that is not related to the 1st.

I agree completely. This is why I fully support Twitter's right to ban Trump, Amazon's right to dump Parler, etc.

The left and the right both get freedom of association wrong. The right gets it wrong on Parler, the left gets it wrong on gay wedding cakes. Everyone needs to stop advocating for the use of the government gun against peaceful people, no matter how much of an asshole they consider their political adversaries to be.

Re: Cabal: A peer-to-peer, off-grid, community-first, hackable chat platform

#133
post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I started using the term "nuclear" once Amazon Cloud Services decided to terminate the Parler web server hosting. If internet service providers can shut down speech they disagree with, by going after the servers, then we're no longer living in a democracy.

As far as I know, AWS is not an ISP-- it's a business, a bit like the one not selling cakes to homosexual individuals.

It's more akin to "no shirt no service". Parler can continue using Amazon if they moderate their platform, you can put on a shirt to get a cake. You cannot change your sexuality or skin color.

Re: Cabal: A peer-to-peer, off-grid, community-first, hackable chat platform

#134
post #127
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having your message broadcasted through Twitter is not a human right or essential to your survival. Also, what kind of TOS would a water company have that you can break? This example is ridiculous.

Sorry, but since the water company is privately owned they can do whatever they please. If you don't like it, you can build your own water company. Thanks! ...now you know how it feels for anyone on the opposite side of your argument.

Nah. The water infrastructure at my home isn't owned by a private company. I live in a state that has this radical policy that water is a human right and should not be commoditized.

Re: Cabal: A peer-to-peer, off-grid, community-first, hackable chat platform

#135

For clarification: The 1st amendment ensures that the government may not stop you from saying what you want. This is a separate issue from private companies removing/banning you. Each company has their own right and freedom to be as dickish as they want with regard to deleting your account etc - but that is not related to the 1st.

Freedom of speech is a guiding principle that predates the United States, and the first amendment, by a few millennia.

And yet every discussion about free speech online contains a few comments about the first amendment’s narrow legal scope. Sure, that’s right, but freedom of speech does not have a narrow legal scope; it’s a much broader concept, and it is global in nature.

In almost every case online, the discussion is about the global ideal of freedom of speech, not about US law.

Re: Cabal: A peer-to-peer, off-grid, community-first, hackable chat platform

#136
post #89

No full forward secrecy. >All traffic is encrypted using a symmetric key, meaning that anybody who has the cabal://abcdef key can read cabal network traffic. If you're even considering this, look at https://tox.chat/ instead. That one's been around for a while (thus mature) and actually has full forward secrecy.

(never tried cabal, it could be worse) tox was accused of having a poor crypto implementation / playing silly buggers with libsodium. I've tried it on android, works ok but most apps at the time seemed older. not sure where tox stands re community liveliness but its certainly a good start on p2p messaging, my claims notwitshtanding.

>tox was accused of having a poor crypto implementation

The actual flaw: If _your_ *private* key is stolen, your friends can be impersonated to you.

Hardly worth the infamy.

There's a bug open on this, the solution is known, the opportunity for a fix, and when it will be made live, will be the next time a protocol break ("flag day") is necessary for other reasons.

Re: Cabal: A peer-to-peer, off-grid, community-first, hackable chat platform

#137

For clarification: The 1st amendment ensures that the government may not stop you from saying what you want. This is a separate issue from private companies removing/banning you. Each company has their own right and freedom to be as dickish as they want with regard to deleting your account etc - but that is not related to the 1st.

No, it isn't. There's already precedents for what businesses can and cannot prevent you from doing. If, for instance, you think a business should be compelled to bake a cake with a certain message on it, then you can't make the argument that there should be no regulation on how much a business can censor its users. That's not the only example. There's extensive case law that establishes how both governments and busin…

There's a difference between you saying what you want on the cake (if they had self-service), and the biz having to write what you want written.

That said, agreed. Big Tech and Fed Govs working in concert is not a positive. Anyone cheering on FAANG's recent decisions is naive.

Re: Cabal: A peer-to-peer, off-grid, community-first, hackable chat platform

#138
post #95
post #89

No full forward secrecy. >All traffic is encrypted using a symmetric key, meaning that anybody who has the cabal://abcdef key can read cabal network traffic. If you're even considering this, look at https://tox.chat/ instead. That one's been around for a while (thus mature) and actually has full forward secrecy.

Problem with forward secrecy is that it doesn't really work well for a use case like cabal. You want to be able to join a cabal and read all the past conversations.

That's desirable for some rooms, not on every room and definitely not on private conversations.

Matrix handles that well, by having a setting per-room regarding handling of room history.

Re: Cabal: A peer-to-peer, off-grid, community-first, hackable chat platform

#140
post #127
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having your message broadcasted through Twitter is not a human right or essential to your survival. Also, what kind of TOS would a water company have that you can break? This example is ridiculous.

Sorry, but since the water company is privately owned they can do whatever they please. If you don't like it, you can build your own water company. Thanks! ...now you know how it feels for anyone on the opposite side of your argument.

Please post a link to the terms of service of your water company.

I'm doubtful there is no clause in your city's/county's/municipality's/state's, etc. that allows them to interrupt service without cause. That's why terms of service exist.

Now I'm genuinely curious to find out what terms of service you agreed to with the private water company. What type of settlement do you live in?

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