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You've Been Referred Here Because You're Wrong About Section 230 of the CDA

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Re: You've Been Referred Here Because You're Wrong About Section 230 of the CDA

#131
Section 230 is a great thing and the consequences of repealing it or adding extra requirements to qualify for its protection would be unequivocally bad.

From a pure logic standpoint, there is something that bugs me with the argument that moderation isn't the same as producing content. A website's moderation policy could be that, on any given day, any message other than "The archduke is a corrupt autocrat responsible for the assassination of members of the political opposition" -- which might be libel -- will be deleted by the content moderation team. The next day, the moderation policy might be that the only message that will not be deleted by the moderation team should be "Furthermore, the archduke is having a secret affair with his first cousin".

The platform doesn't publish any content in this scenario, it merely awaits for some random anonymous account, on which no liability will be assessible, to post the unique string of characters that is allowed by the content moderation policy on that day.

Of course, what I'm setting up here is a bit of a beard fallacy [1]. Laws are not enforced by algorithms and a human (in particular a judge) is perfectly capable of distinguishing between a content moderation policy that bans profanity and one that bans all but one string of character.

Beard arguments are everywhere, human-made categories always have fuzzy boundaries. However, some categories have sharper boundaries than others. There is very little ambiguity as to what "running a red light" means for a motor vehicle, even though Buridan's paradox [2] tells us that there could be. There may be a continuous curve, but the slope is very steep, creating a sharp distinction between "running a red light" and "not running a red light".

The slope from moderation policy to content publisher is not as steep of a slope. While everyone might agree that banning, say, profanities is not really a form of speech, and while everyone might agree that my cute hack above is really just speech, there are many intermediate points where reasonable people might disagree.

Generally these uncharted areas get progressively cleared up through lawsuits creating precedent which creates uncertainty, and introduce layers and layers of complexity.

My own feeling is that when the delineation of a category requires an accumulation of special cases, exceptions, distinctions, clarifications, it generally means that it does not map to something fundamental or important. A large part of software engineering consists in finding the right abstractions to think about a problem, and when one leaks that badly, it's generally and indication that one is thinking about the problem wrong. My hunch is that the fundamental issue lies in the concept of liability for libel in the first place.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorites_paradox [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buridan%27s_ass#Application_to...

Re: You've Been Referred Here Because You're Wrong About Section 230 of the CDA

#132
post #18
post #4

> if you're in a real rush, just read Section (c)(1), which is only 26 words, and is the part that basically every single court decision (and there have been many) has relied on. > (c) Protection for “Good Samaritan” blocking and screening of offensive material (1) Treatment of publisher or speaker > No provider or user of an interactive computer service shall be treated as the publisher or speaker of any information…

You're right, repealing section 230 would result in more censorship, not less. But I think "repeal section 230" has been shorthand slogan for a more detailed set of proposals (much like "defund the police" doesn't mean $0 budgets for all law enforcement). For example, see the DoJ's proposal to amend and clarify section 230 [1] [2]. Among other changes, they suggest limiting the extent to which a platform can moderate…

This is simply wrong. It would mean platforms that don’t moderate have no liability. The law was created because a website that didn’t moderate was found to be not liable for the comments it’s users posted, and a website that did was found to be liable. This is even on the Wikipedia page for section 230.

I guess the conclusion that repealing it would result in more censorship is based on the idea that platforms would moderate more aggressively to try and avoid all liability. When really, that’s simple not possible, and they would have to abandon the practice all together. Well, the larger platforms would have to at least.

Re: You've Been Referred Here Because You're Wrong About Section 230 of the CDA

#133
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>For what it's worth, "Defund the police" does literally mean "reduce funding to what we currently refer to as the police force" I think the relevant part is that one definition of "defund" is (from Google answer box/featured snippet, only provided definition): >prevent from continuing to receive funds. So some people upon first hearing the phrase "defund the police" understand it to mean "prevent the police from con…

"Defund the police" is such a bad catchphrase, it does all sorts of disservices to the actual proposed measures. It sounds vengeful and petty, not thoughtful. It's also misleading - the purpose is not (or should not) be primarily to make sure police has less funds; it's to make sure social services and other programs have funds. Why not call it "fund social services" instead of "defund the police", instead? ("fund so…

Whether you agree with it or not, the purpose is to remove funds from police, which many believe is a positive outcome. Look at police budgets, how that money is spent, how it affects communities to have 60-80% of their tax money go to police. Again, you may disagree, but removing money from the police is the point of the slogan.

Re: You've Been Referred Here Because You're Wrong About Section 230 of the CDA

#134
post #65
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The proposal still lets platforms moderate on certain grounds, a repeal would mean that a platform can't moderate for any reason other than "illegal content" if it wants to keep the protection. The law currently says that a platform can moderate material that is "obscene, lewd, lascivious, filthy, excessively violent, harassing, or otherwise objectionable, whether or not such material is constitutionally protected."…

Does this mean if a sports fan comes into my forum about programming and starts making sports threads, I cannot moderate that away, or else face legal action? Does it also mean HN could face legal action according to its current rule set?

What legal action would you be concerned about?

Re: You've Been Referred Here Because You're Wrong About Section 230 of the CDA

#135
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right, repealing section 230 would result in more censorship, not less. But I think "repeal section 230" has been shorthand slogan for a more detailed set of proposals (much like "defund the police" doesn't mean $0 budgets for all law enforcement). For example, see the DoJ's proposal to amend and clarify section 230 [1] [2]. Among other changes, they suggest limiting the extent to which a platform can moderate…

This is simply wrong. It would mean platforms that don’t moderate have no liability. The law was created because a website that didn’t moderate was found to be not liable for the comments it’s users posted, and a website that did was found to be liable. This is even on the Wikipedia page for section 230. I guess the conclusion that repealing it would result in more censorship is based on the idea that platforms would…

It creates an incentive to improve moderation automation and reduce moderation costs. One way to do that is to verify users, which will help with our sock puppet and deliberate misinformation problems.

Re: You've Been Referred Here Because You're Wrong About Section 230 of the CDA

#136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What part of being banned from Twitter prevents someone from being heard? Also, who is getting banned for talking about the politicians? #2, #7, and #8 (obliquely) on trending right now are about the main politician who was banned...

I don't care about Trump getting banned from twitter. I care about the coordinated takedown of parler by google, apple and soon amazon. Section 230 is supposed to protect free speech on the internet by shielding platforms of legal liability for user generated content. But if a few tech monopolies can just kick a platform off the internet because they don't like its user generated content then what the hell is the poi…

Why should these companies be forced to provide access to a platform that’s largely used for coordinating insurrection and fomenting hate?

Re: You've Been Referred Here Because You're Wrong About Section 230 of the CDA

#137

This is a great summary of what the law's function is. To address those trying to repeal it: • Some people think that if 230 was repealed, websites would moderate less. That's false. Because of the liability for users' posts, big websites would be forced to moderate more . And small websites would shut down out of fear of lawsuits. • Some people think that 230 must be repealed because websites are moderating too much…

IMHO "And small websites would shut down out of fear of lawsuits" is misleading - it would be more appropriate to say "And small websites would refuse all user-generated content out of fear of lawsuits".

They would still operate, but without the immunity the only safe way of moderation is to either have very strict moderation that ensures that anything even remotely questionable can't be posted; or (if you can't afford to have high quality manual moderation) simply not allow users to post anything at all.

Re: You've Been Referred Here Because You're Wrong About Section 230 of the CDA

#138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Couldn't you make the same argument about stickied posts on old forums? I don't think how the content is displayed changes whether they are covered by section 230, and I think the anti-discriminaton exceptions would need to be more explicit to matter.

It looks like to me that you can. When does a moderation choice becomes an editorial choice? Shouldn't there be some difference between the kind of moderation that removes content and the kind of moderation that promotes content?

>When does a moderation choice becomes an editorial choice?

For the purpose of this law, never. Promoting a post does not make you the creator of that post.

Re: You've Been Referred Here Because You're Wrong About Section 230 of the CDA

#139
post #93
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not like people like you who are intelligent enough to be intentionally intellectually dishonest while being extremely malicious underneath. You fool people for sure. I do not know why you do it, though. There is no manipulation going on by “Big Tech”. Your fear mongering is unfounded. Pushing this sort of rhetoric is what created the insurrectionist events a few days ago.

> There is no manipulation going on by “Big Tech”. Your fear mongering is unfounded. Pushing this sort of rhetoric is what created the insurrectionist events a few days ago. There's definitely manipulation going on by "big tech". Social media has radically distorted political discourse and amplified some trends far beyond what Fox News style media alone could have accomplished. What's debatable (and perhaps straying…

> There's definitely manipulation going on by "big tech".

We do it to ourselves. I made this site [1] to review moderation on reddit. It works for accounts, subreddits, threads, and there is also a "top posts/comments" section [2]. When a userbase can review the moderation it becomes harder for manipulation to occur.

[1] https://www.reveddit.com

[2] https://www.reddit.com/r/reveddit/comments/kfdaj7/top_remove...

Re: You've Been Referred Here Because You're Wrong About Section 230 of the CDA

#140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Couldn't you make the same argument about stickied posts on old forums? I don't think how the content is displayed changes whether they are covered by section 230, and I think the anti-discriminaton exceptions would need to be more explicit to matter.

It looks like to me that you can. When does a moderation choice becomes an editorial choice? Shouldn't there be some difference between the kind of moderation that removes content and the kind of moderation that promotes content?

I agree. A challenge would be gathering the data.
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