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Privacy matters even if “you have nothing to hide”

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Re: Privacy matters even if “you have nothing to hide”

#131

Post by pantelisk »

wegs wrote: post #47
pantelisk wrote: post #18

(from FabioAEsteves). "Don't confuse privacy with secrecy. I know what you do in the bathroom, but you still close the door."

No. You, as a point of fact, don't know what I'm doing in the bathroom. * I might be picking a big booger with my pointer finger. * I might be cleaning my butt in ways which are offensive in your culture, whether using my right hand in the India, without TP in the US, or in a hundred other ways. * I might be managing a really nasty fungal growth somewhere you can't see. * I might be pleasing myself. * I might not be…

It was a good counter-point at "No". But since you went on, I now know again.

But jokes aside, the quote is direct anti-symbolism to the "But I have nothing to hide" and found it pretty effective, even in its silly nature, when arguing with people who are too eager to give up all privacy.

Re: Privacy matters even if “you have nothing to hide”

#132

Post by game_the0ry »

bad_alloc wrote: post #4

Whenever somebody argues having nothing to hide I ask: 1) Where were you last night? 2) How much money is in your bank account? Do you have any debt? 3) What is your Debit Card PIN/account password/... 4) What is your address? Your families address? 5) Can I see your key? And so on. Everybody needs to proctect themselves and potentially others attached to them. There is a good reason for these questions being awkward…

Usually when people tell me that line, I ask - can I see the browsing history on your phone? Usually, it gets the point across.

Re: Privacy matters even if “you have nothing to hide”

#133

Post by erikerikson »

cortic wrote: post #56
bad_alloc wrote: post #4

Whenever somebody argues having nothing to hide I ask: 1) Where were you last night? 2) How much money is in your bank account? Do you have any debt? 3) What is your Debit Card PIN/account password/... 4) What is your address? Your families address? 5) Can I see your key? And so on. Everybody needs to proctect themselves and potentially others attached to them. There is a good reason for these questions being awkward…

Posted this five months ago, but its still relevant: My nothing to hide argument; Nothing to hide is an incomplete sentence. Nothing to hide from who? Surly you want to hide your children from abusers and predators? Don't you want to hide your banking details from con artists and fraudsters? Your identity from identity thieves.. Your location from burglars, your car keys from car thieves or your blood type from some…

If we had incontrovertible evidence of every abuse, every predation, every theft attempt via privileged information, misuse of identity information, every inappropriate property action, et cetera... Now include tools for reversing reversable illegal activities (if not identifying them before they are committed). Add real time knowledge of the location and status of all people. What effect would you expect this shift to have on the expected value of illegal behaviors? How long would such practices last? What if rapid response teams would immediately go into motion to end assaults and other risks to health and well-being?

There are great reasons we maintain privacy in our society's current configuration. A shift can sound like a perfect tool for authoritarians and many stories suggest that result but it might also be a perfect tool for exposing them early and suppressing their rise while facilitating greater safety and efficiency in society. We will certainly have to adjust our societal agreements and expectations.

Re: Privacy matters even if “you have nothing to hide”

#134

Post by godelski »

tolbish wrote: post #15
inanutshellus wrote: post #9

I really like Social Cooling's take on privacy ( http://www.socialcooling.com/ ). SC's take (paraphrasingly, of course) is that without privacy, you're only rewarded for astroturfing your life & feigning a blandly successful life without pot holes. The Social Dilemma (Netflix docudrama)'s take on it -- that facebook-et-al don't sell "your data" they sell "a guaranteed change in your behavior" -- is also a pretty damn…

I do not think it is a given that the general public feels powerless about privacy. Why would someone take steps to empower themselves if they see no need for such power?

I think as the "tech elite" it is more our job, as experts, to teach people. I got my parents to use a VPN because Netflix was hounding them when they would watch movies at their second house. I installed ad blockers (and at the same time privacy badger and HTTPS everywhere) in their browsers. We've talked a lot about surveillance capitalism and they've always quoted Goebbels (unknowingly). But after some time they now excitedly tell me about how wrong the ads are that they get in the mail or on their phones. The same thing has happened with several of my friends (many of whom I've gotten on Signal). The fact that they see wrong flyers in the mail has really also opened their eyes about how much they are tracked. Though I'll admit they're trending a little more towards the paranoid side now, but it is unsurprising when you consider Boomers grew up with Orwell, Huxley, and the Cold War (they also watch Fox).

It became clear to me that "I have nothing to hide" was actually "I don't think I can fight it." It was a justification for an apathetic view. Which I understand. If you try to fight a team of psychologists, mathematicians, and super computers, it seems like you have no chance. I think this same thing goes well beyond just privacy too. But most people need to consider that most people are not tech literate and it is a very daunting idea for them, one that they are pretty embarrassed about.

Re: Privacy matters even if “you have nothing to hide”

#136

Post by DoubleGlazing »

MaxBarraclough wrote: post #48
DoubleGlazing wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like to counter the "If you have done nothing wrong then you have nothing to hide" argument with... "If I have done nothing wrong, then no one has the need to take an interest in my personal affairs."

This doesn't strike me as a very compelling response. If someone is arguing for dragnet surveillance with the idea that it only really impacts the guilty, and you respond by pointing out that you're innocent so there's nothing to gain by surveilling you, you haven't refuted their position at all. edit I see we're retreading an exchange (between others) from a few months back: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2370…

But if someone is Okay with a dragnet approach to find criminals, it also means that they are Okay with the government knowing every little detail of their life.

And I would assume most people have things they would rather other people or government not know about.

Everyone has secrets they want to keep.

Re: Privacy matters even if “you have nothing to hide”

#137

Post by oskrim »

inanutshellus wrote: post #9

I really like Social Cooling's take on privacy ( http://www.socialcooling.com/ ). SC's take (paraphrasingly, of course) is that without privacy, you're only rewarded for astroturfing your life & feigning a blandly successful life without pot holes. The Social Dilemma (Netflix docudrama)'s take on it -- that facebook-et-al don't sell "your data" they sell "a guaranteed change in your behavior" -- is also a pretty damn…

This Social Cooling site is nonsense.

If you don't like the idea of someone maintaining a "digital reputation" based on your activity on platform X, don't use platform X. It's that simple.

Also: "We should compare this problem to Global Warming." Similarities? Social cooling is subtle and complex, just like global warming! Such insight.

Re: Privacy matters even if “you have nothing to hide”

#138

Post by dTal »

oskrim wrote: post #137
inanutshellus wrote: post #9

I really like Social Cooling's take on privacy ( http://www.socialcooling.com/ ). SC's take (paraphrasingly, of course) is that without privacy, you're only rewarded for astroturfing your life & feigning a blandly successful life without pot holes. The Social Dilemma (Netflix docudrama)'s take on it -- that facebook-et-al don't sell "your data" they sell "a guaranteed change in your behavior" -- is also a pretty damn…

This Social Cooling site is nonsense. If you don't like the idea of someone maintaining a "digital reputation" based on your activity on platform X, don't use platform X. It's that simple. Also: "We should compare this problem to Global Warming." Similarities? Social cooling is subtle and complex, just like global warming! Such insight.

What happens when platform X is "the internet"? Should I just not use that?

Re: Privacy matters even if “you have nothing to hide”

#139

Post by wegs »

pantelisk wrote: post #131
wegs wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. You, as a point of fact, don't know what I'm doing in the bathroom. * I might be picking a big booger with my pointer finger. * I might be cleaning my butt in ways which are offensive in your culture, whether using my right hand in the India, without TP in the US, or in a hundred other ways. * I might be managing a really nasty fungal growth somewhere you can't see. * I might be pleasing myself. * I might not be…

It was a good counter-point at "No". But since you went on, I now know again. But jokes aside, the quote is direct anti-symbolism to the "But I have nothing to hide" and found it pretty effective, even in its silly nature, when arguing with people who are too eager to give up all privacy.

I think your analogy makes the wrong point. There are many reasons you might have something to hide, and to start with the simplistic ones your friends are presenting, among them is:

1. You did something wrong.

2. Someone else wants to do something wrong to you.

The first is in your control. I think I've acted with sufficient integrity for my life that I have nothing to hide which might land me in trouble.

The second is out of your control. There are unreasonable people in this world. If you have a stalker, you don't want them to know where you are. If your spouse cheats on you and leaves you, you might have a custody battle on the line. If your government goes the way of Germany or Russia circa 1940, you might want to hide your ethnicity or political beliefs. A police officer is investigating a crime, when someone you didn't like was killed; you didn't do it, but time, place, and motive are all there. None of these are particularly likely, but they do come up.

I have one person in my life, and to protect myself from them, I have a limited online presence. I use fake names, and my LinkedIn stopped updating a few years back which limits career prospects, but it's a sacrifice worth making. I let out a lot of information before that, which was a mistake. I went through some legal disagreements at one point, where another party acted unethically and decided to extort me. These things aren't in your control.

When I was young, I had nothing to hide. When I was older, I learned information is power, and information asymmetry can help you or hurt you. With that wisdom, I now have a lot to hide, and I advise younger folks to be mindful of their privacy.

I intentionally listed a lot of different things in my post, with fault lying in different places or nowhere at all, to give an idea of the variety of reasons one might want to hide something.

Re: Privacy matters even if “you have nothing to hide”

#140

Post by Grimm1 »

serial_dev wrote: post #111
Grimm1 wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm responding the the question the op posed "For what?" and then proceeded to offer the most innocuous thing advertising does when there are far more well known malicious things happening every day. I agree this won't convince people for the reason you've stated I just want to make sure we're all on the same page about the actual level of harm that happens.

I'm not in the group of people who would not accept I'm being manipulated. I believe that I'm constantly being manipulated by the media, anyway. If a ~100 character Facebook ad can change my political position, then maybe it is for the better?

Seeing the same message over and over and over and over has been proven to have an effect subconsciously.
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