tldr, the author sent a couple emails to recoup $88 from a mismanaged affiliate program. Not exactly "hacker news" front-page material.
How I Collected a Debt from an Unscrupulous Merchant
131–140 of 270 posts
Re: How I Collected a Debt from an Unscrupulous Merchant
#132Earlier quoted context omitted.
Isn't that the kind of stuff for which you'd rely on opening a dispute with your credit card provider?
I live in Switzerland. A lot of stuff is paid cash at the store, with a debit card, or as a bill that you receive at home later. There is no credit card involved in the transaction. I've also tried charging back on my Swiss card once... What a mission. I was treated the same way any other store treats me: download this PDF, print it out, fill it in (5 pages), send it in the mail , wait 3 weeks, never hear back. Compa…
What can help in Switzerland (and potentially in other countries in Europe) is to complain through a consumer protection office. SRF has a TV and radio show (Kassensturz/Espresso) where they regularly solve consumer issues by threatening bad publicity.
Another option that can work is to send a bill for the owed amount and if they fail to respond start the process of debt collection (Betreibung). It’s a pain and doesn’t work well for people who actually cannot pay, but for regular businesses where you’re stuck somewhere in their bureaucracy it’s a way to force them to respond to your claims that’s a bit less involved than straight-out suing them.
Re: How I Collected a Debt from an Unscrupulous Merchant
#133The blog post he mentions Identity Theft, Credit Reports and You is a really good read that has surfaced on HN a couple times. If you haven’t read it, you should. The notion of simply being an organised professional being the most intimidating thing to bureaucracies is very true in my experience. https://www.kalzumeus.com/2017/09/09/identity-theft-credit-r...
When I moved to Europe, I was VERY surprised to say the least that this doesn’t apply at all here. The attitude is more like “you should feel lucky we let you give us your money and purchase something from us. Now fuck off.” I tried the professional attitude, I tried threatening legal action (I have legal insurance that would pay an obscene amount of lawyer fees if it came to that), I have tried the angry consumer, I…
"Europe" isn't a monolith, how to solve the problem depends on your country and the country of the business you're trying to deal with.
Which country are you talking about specifically?
Re: How I Collected a Debt from an Unscrupulous Merchant
#134It is a hell lots of work for 88 bucks. Amount of work spent writing emails, analyzing data, coming up with strategy - it comes down to pretty low hourly wage...
You need to add future earnings into your calculation
Re: How I Collected a Debt from an Unscrupulous Merchant
#135The blog post he mentions Identity Theft, Credit Reports and You is a really good read that has surfaced on HN a couple times. If you haven’t read it, you should. The notion of simply being an organised professional being the most intimidating thing to bureaucracies is very true in my experience. https://www.kalzumeus.com/2017/09/09/identity-theft-credit-r...
When I moved to Europe, I was VERY surprised to say the least that this doesn’t apply at all here. The attitude is more like “you should feel lucky we let you give us your money and purchase something from us. Now fuck off.” I tried the professional attitude, I tried threatening legal action (I have legal insurance that would pay an obscene amount of lawyer fees if it came to that), I have tried the angry consumer, I…
Probably depends a lot on the country, the type of business and the issue you have.
Just the other day there was judgment in a case against Vodafone (a mobile carrier) where callcenters faked the voices on the call to get a provision and the customer should pay for something he never wanted. If you live in Germany, the Verbraucherzentrale (consumer advice centre) can help you resolve issues like this.
Re: How I Collected a Debt from an Unscrupulous Merchant
#136My summary of this article in terms of good and evil:
- Kiss My Keto unsuccessfully tries to set up an affiliate program that doesn’t eat too much margin and is still equitable to the affiliates (I believe they are doing their best to be a force for good until proven otherwise)
- Mr. Lynch gets involved and finds out the program he thought he was joining is actually not as it seems, so he reaches out to Kiss My Keto to resolve things equitably (again, I believe people are doing their best to be a force for good until proven otherwise)
- Kiss My Keto initially balks but then realizes they weren’t being fair and does everything they can to resolve the problem (still a force for good)
- Mr. Lynch then publicly blogs about the issue from a one-sided perspective and paints an unflattering image of Kiss My Keto. He also drafts hard on someone who actually writes useful content instead of creating something useful on his own (now he’s a force for evil)
- Mr. Lynch also uses the blog as an opportunity to sell a course about how to get to the front page of HN while appealing to his authority on the matter since he has written articles that made it to the front page 17 times (more evil territory)
If this is what it takes to get to the front page of HN maybe I should spend way less time here. This guy wasted everyone’s time with bad intentions.
He could have legitimately wanted to help Kiss My Keto, which would have strengthened their relationship and potentially led to gains for both parties. Instead he wasted their time for a completely insignificant payoff. Seriously, if your site is getting 100k visits a month and you’re scraping the bottom of the barrel for $88 you are doing something wrong or evil. Then he tells everyone else the story and makes himself the hero and Kiss My Keto the villain. That’s what they got for their seemingly good intentions and $88. So evil on Mr. Lynch’s part.
He could have thought of his own framework instead of drafting off Patrick McKenzie‘s ideas and twisting them to fit his selfish goals. Instead he practiced a bit of intellectual thievery and didn’t even further the discussion by adding anything useful. Evil again.
He could have made this story valuable to readers by giving us tools to live a better life, like Patrick McKenzie did with his article. Instead he extorts us for money to learn his “proven” process for gaming his way onto the front page despite having nothing useful to say and wasting everyone’s time. Major evil.
To be clear, I want more good in the world and less evil. If everyone acted like this guy the world would be terrible. Don’t be like this guy.
Am I missing something? Why did this make it to the front page and why do people seem to actually like this article and find it useful? Are we all that terrible?
Re: How I Collected a Debt from an Unscrupulous Merchant
#137Earlier quoted context omitted.
When I moved to Europe, I was VERY surprised to say the least that this doesn’t apply at all here. The attitude is more like “you should feel lucky we let you give us your money and purchase something from us. Now fuck off.” I tried the professional attitude, I tried threatening legal action (I have legal insurance that would pay an obscene amount of lawyer fees if it came to that), I have tried the angry consumer, I…
The US system is based on liability and the threat of legal action. The European system is based on their regulatory framework. If you have a complaint that is clearly managed within that framework (my laundry machine spontaneously broke down within the statutory warranty period) they'll comply, else, yeah, good luck. I moved in the other direction (to the US) and I'm amazed when my wife gets a $50 little blender rep…
Sometimes the regulatory route works in the US. We had our main business phone line go down and Verizon customer service basically shrugged their shoulders and said there was nothing they could do and no way to escalate. One call to the state regulator and not only did they fix the phone line within a couple hours, they begged us to tell them what they could do to make the regulatory complaint go away. We told them we'd like access to FIOS but had always been told fiber wasn't on our street and wasn't going to be. Three weeks later, fiber was run down the entire street and we were hooked up to gigabit internet. That roll out can't have been cheap for them.
Re: How I Collected a Debt from an Unscrupulous Merchant
#138Earlier quoted context omitted.
Careful, you'll be accused of "cancel culture"!
Cancel culture is when you get canceled about having a different opinion, it has nothing to do with shady business practices.
What if you're a business with a different opinion about what constitutes shady business practices?
Re: How I Collected a Debt from an Unscrupulous Merchant
#139Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I’m at a complete loss in Europe. Any advice? In my experience, this has stopped working so well in the last few years with companies tending to call customers' bluffs. In most cases the best solution is: stop giving them money and go to the competitor. Don't threaten legal action unless you already plan to follow it through: companies know this is unlikely to be followed up and will stonewall you. If the industry…
Don't threaten legal action unless you already plan to follow it through: companies know this is unlikely to be followed up and will stonewall you. You actually do have to follow through if you're going to play that game. Otherwise almost everyone is just going to call your bluff, and I'm reasonably sure CS reps are now being actively trained to do so immediately at many companies. For example, any implication that y…
Small claims can work with some companies, but others simply laugh at County Court Judgements.
The hard part isn't winning - which is easy if you have even a minimally credible case - it's enforcement.
If the company ignores the judgement you have to go back to court to get an enforcement order. And then you'll have to engage a collections company and/or a bailiff. And if they seize goods to the value of because they can't extract a payment, you won't be paid until the goods are auctioned off.
To a company turning over millions, a one-off claim for a few hundred is barely worth noticing. From their POV you're barely a flea bite, and of course most people will give up on a claim without much of a fight. So naturally they're going to try that first.
The other point is that most people you deal with don't care either way. They'll follow the company script, because the outcome - and your inconvenience - mean nothing to them.
Re: How I Collected a Debt from an Unscrupulous Merchant
#140My summary of this article in terms of good and evil: - Kiss My Keto unsuccessfully tries to set up an affiliate program that doesn’t eat too much margin and is still equitable to the affiliates (I believe they are doing their best to be a force for good until proven otherwise) - Mr. Lynch gets involved and finds out the program he thought he was joining is actually not as it seems, so he reaches out to Kiss My Keto…
Because sometimes it's not about who's "good" and who's "evil". I found this story interesting and helpful because it did what it set out to do from the beginning: Answer the question of how to get what you feel is yours in a small contractual dispute without going to court by providing a small insignificant practical example. I don't really care who is right or wrong, I don't even know who Patrick McKenzie is.