Live data from Hacker News

‘Tokenized’: Black Workers’ Struggles at Coinbase

nytimes.com

131–140 of 717 posts

Re: ‘Tokenized’: Black Workers’ Struggles at Coinbase

#131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again: the NYT is a newspaper, and isn't vested with subpoena powers. They operate within the limits all newspapers operate in, and there is more than enough meat in this story to understand why they ran with it. "Isn't interested in discovering the truth of the accusations" is hardly a fair criticism here.

A lack of subpoena powers doesn't mean they can't look into it! Take this article on the US Meat Animal Research Center ( https://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/20/dining/animal-welfare-at-... ) as a good example of an organizational misconduct investigation done right. Dr. Keen told the Times they're doing some abusive things to the animals. So the Times talked to a bunch of employees, and reviewed a bunch of documents, in…

See upthread, with examples of how the article does exactly what you ask it to.

It seems like your criticism is that the article implies that Coinbase's executive management has racial bias problems, and the article doesn't establish that bias to your satisfaction. But that's always going to be a problem with news articles. Some will present evidence that is dispositive to you, some won't.

I find the reporting in this piece damning. I understand how others would view it more charitably. That's what we're meant to be discussing. Less productive: a discussion of the legitimacy of the reporting itself.

Re: ‘Tokenized’: Black Workers’ Struggles at Coinbase

#132

When minorities get hired just because companies want to show they are doing their part, doesn't it make sense people hired because of their skin color have harder times to get promotions?

You will get downvoted because HN reflects SV groupthink, but you are absolutely correct. This is a well-studied phenomenon analogous to the Peter principle, and has been observed in workplaces (as you described) and schools (black students who get in to meet an arbitrary target struggle more and have a worse college experience). We are doing these people a disservice. Even in the most “socially forward thinking” com…

Sorry, could you clarify what precisely is a "well studied phenomenon" and maybe link some of the studies? With this sort of research you have to be extremely careful about what claims you assert it supports because there are often serious methodological issues. I also notice in your post that you use the phrase "virtue signal", which suggests a certain political view on your part, so I want to make sure I'm responding to exactly what you claim so we don't get confused by terminology or matters of degree.

Re: ‘Tokenized’: Black Workers’ Struggles at Coinbase

#133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You will get downvoted because HN reflects SV groupthink, but you are absolutely correct. This is a well-studied phenomenon analogous to the Peter principle, and has been observed in workplaces (as you described) and schools (black students who get in to meet an arbitrary target struggle more and have a worse college experience). We are doing these people a disservice. Even in the most “socially forward thinking” com…

Please don't bother replying to something you know will be flagged, as now we have no context for your comments.

When I replied, the thread was quite young. I thought that comment (vaguely mirroring the first paragraph of my comment iirc) was unpopular but certainly not offensive enough to be flagged. Or it is on HN?

Re: ‘Tokenized’: Black Workers’ Struggles at Coinbase

#134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You will get downvoted because HN reflects SV groupthink, but you are absolutely correct. This is a well-studied phenomenon analogous to the Peter principle, and has been observed in workplaces (as you described) and schools (black students who get in to meet an arbitrary target struggle more and have a worse college experience). We are doing these people a disservice. Even in the most “socially forward thinking” com…

Sorry, could you clarify what precisely is a "well studied phenomenon" and maybe link some of the studies? With this sort of research you have to be extremely careful about what claims you assert it supports because there are often serious methodological issues. I also notice in your post that you use the phrase "virtue signal", which suggests a certain political view on your part, so I want to make sure I'm respondi…

I am on mobile, so can’t find an exhaustive list, but here are a few:

https://www.heritage.org/courts/commentary/how-affirmative-a... (Relating to drop out rates)

https://www.nationalaffairs.com/publications/detail/the-sad-...

https://www.jstor.org/stable/3699572?seq=1

https://hilo.hawaii.edu/campuscenter/hohonu/volumes/document...

https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/10/the-pai...

I have worked in this industry - on and off - for 3 decades. This is an ugly phenomenon nobody wants to acknowledge.

The mere suggestion that this is a funnel issue, rather than a racial bias issue, is met with vehement accusations of racism (if coming from an older man like me, even more so).

I’d even go as far as to say SV has a real discrimination problem - and that is ageism. When supply and demand is considered, it is many times as blatant as the supposed race issue.

Finally, I did use the term virtue signalling. It is fairly unambiguous. There are no political leanings to extrapolate from there, yet the subtle accusations put forward based on that is abundantly clear here. Once again - before dissecting my comment and projecting an image of me to attack/downvote, ask yourself if the way SV (likely your employer based on HN demographics)and outlets like NYT frame these issues is truly honest.

Re: ‘Tokenized’: Black Workers’ Struggles at Coinbase

#135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lack of subpoena powers doesn't mean they can't look into it! Take this article on the US Meat Animal Research Center ( https://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/20/dining/animal-welfare-at-... ) as a good example of an organizational misconduct investigation done right. Dr. Keen told the Times they're doing some abusive things to the animals. So the Times talked to a bunch of employees, and reviewed a bunch of documents, in…

See upthread, with examples of how the article does exactly what you ask it to. It seems like your criticism is that the article implies that Coinbase's executive management has racial bias problems, and the article doesn't establish that bias to your satisfaction. But that's always going to be a problem with news articles. Some will present evidence that is dispositive to you, some won't. I find the reporting in thi…

I don't see it as a discussion of legitimacy. It's about the strength of evidence the article offers, and whether there's anything the article could have done to offer stronger evidence or to better defuse suspicions that the author had motives unrelated to the evidence. That seems more productive to me than a discussion about whether Coinbase's management actually is biased, which will inevitably degrade to a dispute about how biased we thought they were before reading the article.

(For what it's worth, the article's lede is well-corroborated, and I agree it provides strong evidence of a serious problem with retention of black employees.)

Re: ‘Tokenized’: Black Workers’ Struggles at Coinbase

#136
post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can have political thoughts. But these employees demanded in tears that upper management break their silence on an on-going case (which they decided was due to skin color, racism, and police violence/murder, when these interpretations are far from clear). So what about the "political" thoughts, that said that Floyd was a career criminal unworthy of sainthood or role modeling, dying from a self-inflicted fentanyl…

As the article says in the second paragraph, the employees that they spoke to left in 2018 and 2019, so this response is irrelevant. I personally find it reprehensible and deliberately lacking context as well but you are entitled to your opinion.

The blog post about leaving politics at the door was in response to the death of Floyd and some employees upset about their perceived "silence" of upper management, where more woke companies did speak up. So it's relevant and provides context to that policy of focusing on company mission, instead of making statements about racial inequality, police brutality, and unfair societies.

You are entitled to political thoughts. If you can handle it, you are even allowed to share them with colleagues. But don't get upset if others have different political thoughts. And certainly not get upset enough to accuse them of racism.

Re: ‘Tokenized’: Black Workers’ Struggles at Coinbase

#137
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why wasn't that treated as an emergency? Companies can be incredibly callous about retention issues, especially if fixing them involves noticing which managers are responsible for behaving badly towards their staff.

"Callous" would mean it's about you, but think about it from the viewpoint of the company. If the aggrieved employee leaves, the problem is solved.

Only if the issue is with that individual employee. In this case, that obviously isn’t the case. Ignoring a systemic problem in your company solves nothing.

Re: ‘Tokenized’: Black Workers’ Struggles at Coinbase

#138

When minorities get hired just because companies want to show they are doing their part, doesn't it make sense people hired because of their skin color have harder times to get promotions?

You will get downvoted because HN reflects SV groupthink, but you are absolutely correct. This is a well-studied phenomenon analogous to the Peter principle, and has been observed in workplaces (as you described) and schools (black students who get in to meet an arbitrary target struggle more and have a worse college experience). We are doing these people a disservice. Even in the most “socially forward thinking” com…

Since there seems to be some activity around this comment and I can no longer edit the parent comment, let me add a few more thoughts here.

Diverse hiring (as in equal outcome hiring) does not materially benefit companies.

I was on, or closely worked with teams that built early versions of modern virtual memory, Excel, Turbo Pascal, WebTV, and IIS, and they were largely white men, with a sprinkling of Asian men. Would these products be better engineering marvels with more racial and gender representation? Possibly, but not because of the existence of “women algorithms” or “black design patterns”. Human brains work similarly given similar inputs. There is some revenue to be regained in designing for edge case blind spots, but it is an overwhelming small fraction when you are working at the bleeding edge of an industry. You did not see these initiatives in tech at the time for the same reason you don’t see them in the space travel industry, or anti-aging research, or on the teams working on a COVID-19 vaccine (how ridiculous would that sound?). The industry was not mature enough, as it is now, for such overhead (distractions, to be less polite). There was important work to be done, and we didn’t care who you were as long as you could help. These were some of the most open, progressive, intelligent and honest teams I got to work with.

Then why is it important? Because diverse hiring (as in equal-opportunity hiring) is __the right thing to do__. Talent can come from South America or South Chicago just as easily as Bangalore or Austin, TX. The next Donald Knuth or Jeffrey Dean should not be denied an opportunity because of their skin color or gender if they shone through. And in those teams, several of them shone through and we scrambled to bring them aboard.

What is happening now is analogous to dredging the river bed, incurring the costs of that (which is possible because the industry is massively profitable and mature, with very little paradigm-shifting work left at these companies) to find what might be remotely shiny. We can then report our “progress” and pat ourselves on the back. Except, this breeds resentment from the rocks and diamonds not getting dredged, the aforementioned Peter Principle issue, and as I’ve observed, the general unease. You will not find a team at a company like Etsy that is as accepting and open as the teams I mentioned, because the sacred thing that pulls together smart people - the “bar” for lack of better term - may have been compromised in bringing in the latest new hire. If there is a shadow of doubt about that, even if this person truly is a diamond, they are done a disservice because of this dynamic at play. It is unfair, and in the long term, actually hurts these UR communities in this industry.

Re: ‘Tokenized’: Black Workers’ Struggles at Coinbase

#139
post #56

> One Black employee said her manager suggested in front of colleagues that she was dealing drugs and carrying a gun, trading on racist stereotypes. Another said a co-worker at a recruiting meeting broadly described Black employees as less capable. Still another said managers spoke down to her and her Black colleagues, adding that they were passed over for promotions in favor of less experienced white employees. The…

So do you believe that all the white employees just laughed about this? Did any of them corroborate the allegations? I work at a FAANG and a massive percentage of employees are rabidly anti-racist, and wouldn't stand for anything like that. Are coinbase employees just cut from a different cloth?

Absolutely. Look at their CEO statements. They seem to hire very anti-establishment, anti-pc (in their view). It’s easy for a culture to then not hire people who don’t fit that mold.

Re: ‘Tokenized’: Black Workers’ Struggles at Coinbase

#140
post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without the additional context from the article, I think citing 75% is a bit misleading. "When Coinbase announced it would be opening an office in Portland, Ore., several Black employees in the compliance department who worked remotely were told to move there or reapply for new jobs, four former employees said." "All of the Black workers in the compliance division ended up among the group of 15 who left." Without con…

Ok, let's accept what you say as fact and ignore that an exception was made for the single White employee in that department which wasn't made for any of the Black employees you are referencing. Let's also ignore the weirdness of 40% of the company's Black employees being on a single seemingly small team. That still leaves 7 other employees in other departments who left the company in a 6 month window due to feeling…

Just went back to double check the article and am actually not certain how you are getting to the number 75%. 11 employees cited a complaint to HR according to the article. Where are you getting the denominator for total number of black employees in 2019?

There's a data mismatch between the CB blog post and the article. CB cites that only 2-3 formal complaints were filed iirc.

11 employee complaints matches pretty closely with the PDX group.

--

FWIW I'm not dismissing the complaints. I've worked and studied in places where I've felt like an outsider; I've seen people make inappropriate comments about race+stereotypes in past work environments; I've also seen people make fishing claims of racial discrimination.

I wasn't on those teams in 2019, so the truth is I simply don't know.

From what I see today and the lack of concrete evidence in the article, I do have some doubts about the overall impression the article tries to give. I have the sense that certain information might have been omitted that might paint a clearer picture. I could totally be wrong as well.

Post reply on HN