1% of farms operate 70% of world's farmland • Hacker News Board

Re: 1% of farms operate 70% of world's farmland

#131

Post by bluGill » Wed, Nov 25, 2020, 3:03 PM UTC

javiramos wrote: post #85

fsloth wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What economies of scale specifically do farms have? A farm is not a factory where you can create a uniform process...

Leafy greens production is quickly being standardized and automated in a highly controllable format. e.g. [0] It would be reasonable to assume that the farming of many other crops will eventually transition to fully automated indoor formats. [0] https://infinite-acres.com/

Not really. Leafy greens are expensive in the store for what you get: a lot of labor required, and spoil quickly after harvest. It makes sense to automate indoors. Most crops need a lot more space, and a lot less labor. Indoor farming is not economical for these.

Don't get me wrong: there are a number of crops where it makes sense. They are an important source of nutrients (and taste!), but a poor source of calories overall.

Re: 1% of farms operate 70% of world's farmland

#132

Post by Loughla » Wed, Nov 25, 2020, 3:06 PM UTC

beachy wrote: post #129

Loughla wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just for reference, I've lived on our current place for 20 years or so, and it has taken absolutely every one of those years to get to a point that our 'permaculture' farm is anywhere near running efficiently. The amount of work involved in that process is simply staggering. There are principals that can be effectively integrated to a backyard garden. But, to have as close to a self-sustaining cycle as you can, you'r…

We have a great permaculture farm near us, they run classes, tours etc. (Apparently a popular joke in the permaculture world is that the only way to make money off permaculture is to run permaculture courses). Everything I've seen there echos your sentiments. An incredible amount of work - and knowledge - to achieve a rather peasant-level existence. That said it's amazing seeing anyone live a genuinely sustainable li…

>I always think that if everyone lived and thought like these guys, our environment would be recovering nicely.

That's the problem.

>to achieve a rather peasant-level existence.

Without massive, massive disruption to the way people live, this is not a thing that will happen.

This is why I'm very negative about the prospects of climate change and the future. I don't think there will be a stomach to change to a lifestyle that supports climate improvements until such time as we're already fighting world wars over land, water, and food.

We also run tours, but in conjunction with the local state university extension office, for free. We could charge, but that defeats the purpose of getting the principals we believe in out to the world.

That is not a moral judgment on the people running the one near you. My partner and I have full-time jobs that support our lifestyle - the 'farmette' is just a hobby.

Re: 1% of farms operate 70% of world's farmland

#133

Post by d33lio » Wed, Nov 25, 2020, 3:09 PM UTC

And where are all the city folk in a rush to get their share of farmland?

I love farmers markets, but at the same time small farmers own less land. With mechanization and contracting out of harvesting "as a service" it's not all that surprising that "1% of farms" operate on this much land.

Re: 1% of farms operate 70% of world's farmland

#134

Post by andersha » Wed, Nov 25, 2020, 3:10 PM UTC

yenwodyah wrote: post #45

There's nothing wrong with that.

what a strong argument, could you please elaborate on your stance on this topic?

Re: 1% of farms operate 70% of world's farmland

#135

Post by vram22 » Wed, Nov 25, 2020, 3:11 PM UTC

fouc wrote: post #96

prepend wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you say operate do you mean do all the work? Or manage the farm and hire people to do that? If the former, would you say what kind of farm it is, 1000 acre farm that’s easy enough to spend 15 hours a week seems interesting to me.

There's definitely lots of low effort options for farming. Look at permaculture farming for example, key ideas behind it involve no-tilling, sculpting the landscape with various shapes like berms, which create microclimates, arranging rows of trees to retain moisture, etc. There's a lot of ways to make the land work for you, but can take a few years to get it to a highly productive state.

Right. I had given a few examples of quite successful long-running permaculture / regenerative agriculture operations here - people like Gabe Brown (Brown's Ranch, ND, US, ~5000 acres), Richard Perkins (Ridgedale Permaculture, Varmland, Sweden, 25 hectares?), Geoff Lawton (NSW, AU, well-known permaculture pioneer, 66 hectares/acres - countries consult him, even):

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24827234

Most of them have YouTube channels with a number of videos each, so you can see that they are actually walking (or plowing or no-tilling :) the talk. They also do invited talks and run internships. Gabe, Richard, Geoff and many others also use conventional or adapted machines (traditional heavy machinery or lower-cost appropriate technology), too, so it can be a hybrid what-makes-sense-as-well-as-is-sustainable approach; it is not a totally back-to-nature hippie kind of thing. In fact all those I mentioned are highly educated (whether college- or self-taught), and well aware of critical modern scientific discoveries and development in ag-related sciences (plural) and use them as appropriate in their operations. One big such example is Elaine Ingham's work (a Ph.D. soil biology scientist, founder of Soil Food Web, Inc.), which I also commented on in the same thread as the one I linked to above (it is very significant, and they all quote her and apply her results):

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24828524

There are many more, doing their thing successfully and quietly, although there certainly are talks, books, videos, conferences, associations, courses, etc.

And some of them claim that their approach is lower effort and / or lower cost than so-called "conventional" farming. In fact, Gabe says that it is their approach (permaculture / regen ag) which is closer to "conventional", since it mimics nature, as much as feasible, and nature has been at it for millenia before we even walked the earth. And in a holistic sense, it is actually more efficient.

Edited for typos.

Re: 1% of farms operate 70% of world's farmland

#136

Post by fbelzile » Wed, Nov 25, 2020, 3:15 PM UTC

kanox wrote: post #123

whalesalad wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uncapped and unbounded it’s a bad thing. The measuring posts are moving every day, they’re constantly getting bigger. Small farms are bought out by bigger farms. You sure you want a handful of multinational conglomerates growing all of our food?

Yes. Is there a good reason for agriculture to be less concentrated than industrial sectors, for example automotive?

Increased innovation created through more competition (eg: vertical farming). Also, all the issues associated with mono-cultures.

I don't think comparing agribusiness to other industries is going to help. Yes, factory farming is more efficient, which makes it cheaper. But the price we pay doesn't necessarily reflect the actual costs to our health and the environment.

Re: 1% of farms operate 70% of world's farmland

#137

Post by thinkingemote » Wed, Nov 25, 2020, 3:15 PM UTC

This quote is from a report, which itself is based on a FAO report:

http://www.fao.org/3/ca7036en/ca7036en.pdf

Quote with context:

The results show that, worldwide, farms of less than 1 hectare account for 70 percent of all farms, but operate only 7 percent of all agricultural land. Slightly larger farms between 1 and 2 hectares account for 14 percent of all farms and control 4 percent of the land. Together, farms of less than 2 hectares account for 84 percent of all farms, but operate only around 12 percent of all agricultural land. Farms in the range of 2 to 5 hectares account for 10 percent of all farms and control 6 percent of the land. Interestingly, the largest 1 percent of farms in the world (those larger than 50 hectares) operate more than 70 percent of the world’s farmland.

(there are 608 million farms in the world)

Re: 1% of farms operate 70% of world's farmland

#138

Post by iguy » Wed, Nov 25, 2020, 3:17 PM UTC

bryanlarsen wrote: post #99

mellavora wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe true in glorious future where the industrialized farm can support increased biodiversity. Currently, however, this promotes large-scale monoculture. Which is inherently harmful on almost every level, including the ability to keep the cost of food down and and the supply up. Food diversity is much much less than it was 100 years ago. Nutritional content of food is down significant levels from 30 years ago.

I'm willing to bet that biodiversity in large farms and in small farms is relatively similar. Sure, if we returned to the way the American Indigenous farmed, co-planting maize, beans and squash that'd be awesome for biodiversity. But that requires hand harvesting -- you can't even use a sickle or a horse to help, let alone any type of machinery. Small farmers and big farmers both use monocultures.

> let alone any type of machinery.

Any 20th C machine. If we do get good enough at robotics that we can switch from herbicides to weeding by AI, that might allow all sorts of interesting things.

Re: 1% of farms operate 70% of world's farmland

#139

Post by oblio » Wed, Nov 25, 2020, 3:18 PM UTC

xenocratus wrote: post #41

kebman wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you are saying is true, but a lot of people hate the thought, since a farm has historically been a family working within a small community or a village, first and foremost for their own benefit, with the surplus going back to the village or greater society through trade or cooperation (or later by force through taxation by the Lord of the land). This was a good and healthy life that produced strong people. For t…

> a lot of people hate the thought Source? > For thousands of years the farm was the producer of civilization and culture. The producer of "civilization and culture"? In what sense? Farms produce the goods we eat, how does that lead to culture and civilization? I'm not that knowledgeable at history - if that is the case, then I'd really like to read more about it. > Today, on the other hand, it has been reduced to a…

> The producer of "civilization and culture"? In what sense? Farms produce the goods we eat, how does that lead to culture and civilization? I'm not that knowledgeable at history - if that is the case, then I'd really like to read more about it.

Well, I recommend any history book about the Fertile Crescent and Ancient Egypt.

If you have 1 hour, hear/listen to this podcast/video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2lJUOv0hLA

Re: 1% of farms operate 70% of world's farmland

#140

Post by bluGill » Wed, Nov 25, 2020, 3:19 PM UTC

qwerty456127 wrote: post #90

joubert wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Corporate vs family/sole proprietorship could be one way to describe.

It still can be technically a corporation, even if the corporation is owned by a single person, a family or a small team of friends.

Given the tax and liability laws in the US only a fool farmer isn't a corporation. Hobby farm is the most likely way to fall into that - if you are doing it for fun you don't really care that there might be a better way.