Absolutely agree.
The emphasis on writing skills is a repeating theme here, too.
A few months ago I wrote a similar thing that got >800 votes here on HN: https://snir.dev/blog/remote-async-communication
To find great remote employees, prioritize candidates with strong writing skills
131–140 of 332 posts
Re: To find great remote employees, prioritize candidates with strong writing skills
#132Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I applied to 250+ positions That sounds wrong. It's common, but it still sounds wrong to me. When I look for new jobs, I find a couple of companies (3-4) that match with what I'm looking for exactly, read up on the companies, tell them explicitly how I fit into what they need and write them personally. I have a 100% success rate when it comes to interviews, and most of the time I get a offer, but drop out when my c…
”I’m sure your success rate will improve then” I think you are wrong. I don’t have a CS degree, I don’t have top brand college or employer. You also assume wrong that I didn’t dedicated myself to apply to specific jobs where I was a very good fit. I did that. And it didn’t got me offers. If you tell me more about your profile, I am sure I can pinpoint why you get 100% success rate and I don’t. I am pretty sure it is…
I don't have any CS degree, nor studied at any college, nor worked at any famous employer neither. So probably irrelevant.
I sure knows that when I'm doing the hiring, I rarely if ever read what colleges or what previous companies the candidate worked on. All that matters is what their experience is, what they learned so far, what they tell me they wanna do in the future and how they are as a person.
> You also assume wrong that I didn’t dedicated myself to apply to specific jobs
Yeah, that's my fault, sorry about that. It's hard for me to imagine how you can have time to send out 250+ applications and still have a dedicated cover letter and well-researched application for each one of them.
While I don't know how the 250+ companies you've applied to are thinking, I can share how I think, when trying to hire someone for a position. And from your advice, only "good public sample of your code" and "clear explanations and thought process" would be something that I would care about. The rest of your advice are not only not relevant, but some are even outright harmful. Good writing absolutely helps someone (in my eyes) to be more fitting for any type of position.
My advice to job seekers would also be to look for advice regarding getting hired by either people who have been hired, consistently so, or by the people who are doing the hiring. While it could be helpful, chances are that people who haven't got a high success rate at getting hired, aren't able to give you good advice.
Re: To find great remote employees, prioritize candidates with strong writing skills
#133Earlier quoted context omitted.
The fact that you was taught that in elementary school and thus literally concluded that it is impossible to read something without knowing conclusion first is what makes it cultural. The fact that he and everyone around him sees conclusion up front as jumping the gun and likely was taught that structure in school, is what makes it cultural. > How could you read anything without knowing the point in the beginning. Ev…
It doesn't make sense as being cultural because there plenty of real examples of effective writing that starts with what you are writing about. The only exception might be in story telling, but that only works because there is some kind of context assumed or it works as a tool. It makes no sense for this "culture" to think less of research or any writing that intends to persuade because it starts with a introduction…
> It doesn't make sense as being cultural because there plenty of real examples of effective writing that starts with what you are writing about.
That argument does not make sense.
> It makes no sense for this "culture" to think less of research or any writing that intends to persuade because it starts with a introduction or summary.
And it does not make sense for you to look down at writing that puts conclusion to the end going with arguments first. It is just an habit and meaningless difference, that is all.
> This is one example, it has rules because those are effective at communicating. How can you just write it off like that? With no reason other then you think it doesn't count?
Researchers and their papers are not effective at communicating. That a thing that researches complain about periodically.
In any case, corporate mail is not research paper. Among other things, it is supposed to be significantly shorter. Just like it is not newspaper article.
Re: To find great remote employees, prioritize candidates with strong writing skills
#134I believe I am a good writer. On my first job as a developer I kept getting very positive feedback on my writing. I ended up even starting a newsletter with writing advice for software developers[0]. So 4 months ago I started looking for a remote job. I applied to 250+ positions. All very suited to my skills (e.g. I wouldn’t apply to any job asking for “senior” or “fullstack”). I got about only ~15 interviews, 1 offe…
> I applied to 250+ positions That sounds wrong. It's common, but it still sounds wrong to me. When I look for new jobs, I find a couple of companies (3-4) that match with what I'm looking for exactly, read up on the companies, tell them explicitly how I fit into what they need and write them personally. I have a 100% success rate when it comes to interviews, and most of the time I get a offer, but drop out when my c…
He might be right, that a top brand college (and other stuff) will help getting past the HR filter. But I do not agree that this is the only thing.
I agree with you, that very specifically targeted and created applications will get a response rate better by at least a factor of ten.
I am often on the other side. Reading applications and deciding whom to invite to an interview. As Inteverviews take time for at least me and 3 other colleagues I filter very strongly. For one hour of interview the amount of time it takes (preparation, discussion afterwards, and so on) can take up to 1 - 1.5 person days.
As I am working for an agency this means 1.5 days me and my colleagues can't earn money for the company by working productively for our clients (even our managers work hands on on client projects at least part of their time).
So creating a well thought out application, one that is targeted and also shows the personality of the applicant helps me a lot in deciding whom to invite. Make it stand out without being obnoxious. Make it fitting for the company and the job.
An anecdote to exemplify my point:
I remember how my late father helped our neighbor's son with his application. He was a carpenter and had specialized in restoration. He wanted to apply for a job at a workshop that had been set up to do just that.
My father and he then designed (and he made) a special application folder made of wood. This had very fine intarsia work and showed very precisely what skills the neighbor's son had as a craftsman.
The cover letter and curriculum vitae were of course also well thought out and designed. No question.
An application - an interview - a job offer at one of the leading workshops for restoration work in Europe.
Re: To find great remote employees, prioritize candidates with strong writing skills
#135I believe I am a good writer. On my first job as a developer I kept getting very positive feedback on my writing. I ended up even starting a newsletter with writing advice for software developers[0]. So 4 months ago I started looking for a remote job. I applied to 250+ positions. All very suited to my skills (e.g. I wouldn’t apply to any job asking for “senior” or “fullstack”). I got about only ~15 interviews, 1 offe…
I think you missed one thing -- in my opinion the most crucial: cover letter. I wrote about it on https://blog.gingerlime.com/2020/who-doesnt-want-to-be-hired...
7 jobs; 2-3x offers over career, and I’ve never written a cover letter.
Involved in interviewing for 2/7, and a cover letter has never factored into a hiring decision.
Re: To find great remote employees, prioritize candidates with strong writing skills
#136I've been working on remote teams for almost 20 years. The key to success is overcommunicating. In other words--don't assume people have full context or share assumptions. Write emails that lay out assumptions explicitly and detail problems completely. As a manager I sometimes feel like a Habsburg bureaucrat buried in the Chancery offices sending painstaking messages to a far flung empire. Come to think of it, remote…
That is good if you are working in a team that is comfortable reading and writing a lot of English, and cares about what you're writing.
If those things aren't true, "overtransmitting" (because you are not in fact communicating) will just lead to unread email, incomprehension, sidelining and getting ignored. That goes double if what you're trying to do is already against the corporate culture (in the conventions and accepted quality level sense).
Re: To find great remote employees, prioritize candidates with strong writing skills
#137Earlier quoted context omitted.
> As an IC, people rarely read my emails if it doesn't fit in their screen (so 3 paragraphs is the max). You need to learn how to restructure your writing. Most logical people naturally write in a way where it’s premise, premise, premise, conclusion. Instead, you need to write conclusion, premise, premise, premise. One way I’ve found to help my team learn to write this way is to institute a rule that any writing long…
This echoes OPs point about culture. One absolutely should not do what you've mentioned in my location. Here we lay out the arguments, and the conclusion at the end. The reverse is seen as jumping the gun, and not being well reasoned. It is looked down upon, and frequently discounted immediately. Cultural bias is very much a thing.
> One absolutely should not do what you've mentioned in my location. Here we lay out the arguments, and the conclusion at the end. The reverse is seen as jumping the gun, and not being well reasoned. It is looked down upon, and frequently discounted immediately.
I would like to understand why the reverse is "jumping the gun". I am assuming the arguments have not changed, the reasoning remains the same. Why is a mere change of order "jumping the gun"?
Re: To find great remote employees, prioritize candidates with strong writing skills
#138I believe I am a good writer. On my first job as a developer I kept getting very positive feedback on my writing. I ended up even starting a newsletter with writing advice for software developers[0]. So 4 months ago I started looking for a remote job. I applied to 250+ positions. All very suited to my skills (e.g. I wouldn’t apply to any job asking for “senior” or “fullstack”). I got about only ~15 interviews, 1 offe…
> I applied to 250+ positions That sounds wrong. It's common, but it still sounds wrong to me. When I look for new jobs, I find a couple of companies (3-4) that match with what I'm looking for exactly, read up on the companies, tell them explicitly how I fit into what they need and write them personally. I have a 100% success rate when it comes to interviews, and most of the time I get a offer, but drop out when my c…
I agree with that 100%. I've had interviews with every company I've applied to when it's been for a specific job. I don't always get results when I speculatively apply or apply for something which I might not be the best candidate for. But if it's something I know, then it's as simple as touching up the CV, writing a personalised cover letter about my experience in industry, what I can bring to the company, what I'm interested in working on etc.
People underestimate cover letters so much. Nothing says you've done your research than 300-400 words about why you want the job. Shotgunning CVs to a billion companies is a brute force approach.
Re: To find great remote employees, prioritize candidates with strong writing skills
#139I've been working on remote teams for almost 20 years. The key to success is overcommunicating. In other words--don't assume people have full context or share assumptions. Write emails that lay out assumptions explicitly and detail problems completely. As a manager I sometimes feel like a Habsburg bureaucrat buried in the Chancery offices sending painstaking messages to a far flung empire. Come to think of it, remote…
Some teams focus on communicating as much as possible and I as a developer am in favor of this, since it makes my job easier.
On the other hand some teams, usually startups that move too fast and can't communicate everything, stress the importance of independence.
Both are needed, when you can say as much as you can, I am totally for overcommunication. Sometimes unexpected things happen, or there is just not enough time for proper communications, so a proper judgement is needed.
Re: To find great remote employees, prioritize candidates with strong writing skills
#140Earlier quoted context omitted.
But, when it's that long, do people read it? It seems like a great CYB tactic, but maybe a poor communication tactic. I'm a voracious reader, but when it comes to most corporate communication I won't really read anything over a paragraph long. I might skim it if it is from my manager. Maybe.
People read if it’s written well. Don’t make it long to be long, make it long because it needs to be long. My favorite feedback is when someone replies to a 1000+ word newsletter with “Wow, short and to the point! Thanks”.
> People read if it’s written well.
This is bordering on the No True Scotsman fallacy.