A case for using punctuation in Slack • Hacker News Board

Re: A case for using punctuation in Slack

#131

Post by Bedon292 » Mon, Oct 19, 2020, 8:44 PM UTC

tashoecraft wrote: post #125

Bedon292 wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess that is how I know I am getting old? I have never even heard of anyone thinking a sentence ending in a period is anything but normal. And I actually detest the use of exclamation points. They are almost always unnecessary. And I probably read too much into them, as opposed to others doing the same on periods. It is interesting though. Looking back at chat history. If I am not writing multiple sentences, and e…

When you're writing small, short sentences, there is something off putting about periods. It's just part of the how text based communication has become. Emojis are good because words can be interpreted with a tone that was unintended, and can lead to all sorts of communication problems. It's small and simple, but an appropriate emoji helps convey our emotions in a way that is more difficult to in short, text based me…

I always attempt to write, even on Slack or other chat programs, in such a way that no unintended tone comes across. To me it feels like I have failed in communicating if an emoji is necessary to convey a message. I honestly cannot think of anywhere I could use them to make a message clearer. But, I will be asking a few folks if there is an issue with my communication, and if I can be more clear in any way. Including the use of emoji.

To me, it also feels less professional, but this thread has opened my eyes to this bias I have. So I am going to attempt to make less of a judgement on this moving forward.

Re: A case for using punctuation in Slack

#132

Post by ctur » Mon, Oct 19, 2020, 8:50 PM UTC

There is a good book about the evolution of written communication as the Internet evolved. "Because Internet" by Gretchen McCulloch goes into some of the subtle implications of using punctuation such as periods ending sentences, capitalization, etc. Text makes it difficult to convey emotions and subtlety so even using punctuation can add signal to the communication channel. It turns out there is relatively powerful tonal communication through those deviations on "standard" English grammar rules. Similarly, Emoji also acts as a replacement for gesturing.

Very interesting book and worth reading to understand how to tailor communication for the medium.

Re: A case for using punctuation in Slack

#133

Post by mindcrime » Mon, Oct 19, 2020, 9:00 PM UTC

Bedon292 wrote: post #127

musingsole wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's something people do in their own minds because experience generally proves out most people only use a period in a single statement message if they're emphasizing firmness. Those who do use the period and don't mean firmness are a minority and are generally demonstrating they aren't accustomed to chatting in text (or potentially have always been talking from a position of authority, so no one's mentioned how they…

I have been chatting via text, as a major form of communication, for more than 20 years and at least 2/3s of my life. Before this thread, I have never even contemplated a period having any meaning more than the end of a though. And I certainly had no position of authority, so that didn't affect anything. I am really curious how this evolved, and how I missed it being something people think. My biases tend to lean tow…

I have been chatting via text, as a major form of communication, for more than 20 years and at least 2/3s of my life. Before this thread, I have never even contemplated a period having any meaning more than the end of a though. And I certainly had no position of authority, so that didn't affect anything.

Same here.

Re: A case for using punctuation in Slack

#134

Post by jay_kyburz » Mon, Oct 19, 2020, 9:00 PM UTC

Bedon292 wrote: post #131

tashoecraft wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you're writing small, short sentences, there is something off putting about periods. It's just part of the how text based communication has become. Emojis are good because words can be interpreted with a tone that was unintended, and can lead to all sorts of communication problems. It's small and simple, but an appropriate emoji helps convey our emotions in a way that is more difficult to in short, text based me…

I always attempt to write, even on Slack or other chat programs, in such a way that no unintended tone comes across. To me it feels like I have failed in communicating if an emoji is necessary to convey a message. I honestly cannot think of anywhere I could use them to make a message clearer. But, I will be asking a few folks if there is an issue with my communication, and if I can be more clear in any way. Including…

I agree, I think the only appropriate time for an emoji is to acknowledge somebodies else's message but you don't have anything you want to say. A thumbs up or a celebrate.

Re: A case for using punctuation in Slack

#135

Post by solidasparagus » Mon, Oct 19, 2020, 9:00 PM UTC

iamdbtoo wrote: post #96

musingsole wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's something people do in their own minds because experience generally proves out most people only use a period in a single statement message if they're emphasizing firmness. Those who do use the period and don't mean firmness are a minority and are generally demonstrating they aren't accustomed to chatting in text (or potentially have always been talking from a position of authority, so no one's mentioned how they…

I don't agree that putting a period in casual textual communication is inherently hostile. I also don't agree that those who do are just simply unaware of the chaos they are causing. At the end, though, you're still making a judgement about someone with very little information and you have a choice not to do that.

> I don't agree that putting a period in casual textual communication is inherently hostile

In communication, your opinion of how something will be interpreted is far less important than opinions of the people doing the interpretation. You can stand firm in believing that adding the period doesn't make your message more hostile, but that won't change how your readers feel.

Re: A case for using punctuation in Slack

#136

Post by keithnz » Mon, Oct 19, 2020, 9:01 PM UTC

Not that I use Slack anymore, I use Discord at work...

I disagree with the details of this argument, the costs seem strawman ish. You quickly get used to writing styles, chat systems are an ongoing ecosystem and you adapt quickly.

What I would suggest is to try and make your messages self contained with context. Avoid private messaging and ask things on open channels, too much information is hidden away in private messages. Even if your question is really for a specific person. Seeing conversations helps build narratives and context for teams.

Re: A case for using punctuation in Slack

#137

Post by mindcrime » Mon, Oct 19, 2020, 9:14 PM UTC

jbay808 wrote: post #81

swimfar wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you explain this more because it's completely foreign to me. For me a period is the end of a sentence. It has nothing to do with ending the message I'm trying to get across. Is this a cultural or generational or professional field difference? I'd never heard of the idea that a period would be too formal in any context.

It's definitely something that I notice with instant messages. Periods are used between sentences in a multi-sentence message, but if you put them at the end, you might seem upset -- especially if the sentence is short. This is probably because: - IMs are already formatted to show the end of each message (chat bubble, etc), so a period communicates extra 'finality' beyond what is necessary; - Sentence fragments are n…

    > I'll be home late tonight
    
    >> Okay.

The only way in which that strikes me as "weird" at all is that the second person responded in a different style than the person they are responding. That is, there's nothing inherently weird or awkward about the period. Imagine, for example, this instead:

> I'll be home late tonight.

>> Okay.

I don't think anybody would bat an eyelash at either part of this exchange, because they "match" in style.

Re: A case for using punctuation in Slack

#138

Post by tashoecraft » Mon, Oct 19, 2020, 9:18 PM UTC

Bedon292 wrote: post #131

tashoecraft wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you're writing small, short sentences, there is something off putting about periods. It's just part of the how text based communication has become. Emojis are good because words can be interpreted with a tone that was unintended, and can lead to all sorts of communication problems. It's small and simple, but an appropriate emoji helps convey our emotions in a way that is more difficult to in short, text based me…

I always attempt to write, even on Slack or other chat programs, in such a way that no unintended tone comes across. To me it feels like I have failed in communicating if an emoji is necessary to convey a message. I honestly cannot think of anywhere I could use them to make a message clearer. But, I will be asking a few folks if there is an issue with my communication, and if I can be more clear in any way. Including…

I think with just the shear amount of messaging that is occurring in todays age combined with the lines being blurred between work and home makes communication rapidly evolve. What one things is clear communication with no ambiguity, another might disagree.

An example is responding back to a message with "Ok.". I see many over, say, 50 do this much more often, but to many under, say 30, this is taken as very passive aggressive.

Re: A case for using punctuation in Slack

#139

Post by Bedon292 » Mon, Oct 19, 2020, 9:19 PM UTC

musingsole wrote: post #129

Bedon292 wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have been chatting via text, as a major form of communication, for more than 20 years and at least 2/3s of my life. Before this thread, I have never even contemplated a period having any meaning more than the end of a though. And I certainly had no position of authority, so that didn't affect anything. I am really curious how this evolved, and how I missed it being something people think. My biases tend to lean tow…

It's not a new or unknown convention/perception (as shown by the article posted here discussing the pissed period in 2013). I can't tell you why you would've been unaware of it, and I certainly wouldn't want to offend by guessing! :P A lot of it has to be context. If I'm talking to someone new, I'm going to try very hard to read very little into the text they've sent me. If it's a message from my partner -- yeah, eve…

I am really curious just how common this is. I know that article existed in 2013, but how many people read it and agreed with it? If you produced a large survey across a broad age range and diverse set of background, how common is this? The fact that I have never come across this before today makes me feel biased towards it being rare. But the very existence of this thread seems to indicate it is relatively common.

I know another person in this thread mentioned a study about short (one word) responses being interpreted differently based on punctuation, or lack thereof. But that doesn't appear to have studied full sentences with or without.

With your example, I am basically blind to the existence of the period. So "I'm fine." vs "I'm fine" are identical in my interpretation. Or at least they were before today. The ellipsis does register as a trailing thought, and I definitely read meaning into that.

To me, a sentence should normally end in a period. However, due to the informality of chat, it is acceptable to leave off in the final sentence of a message. It being there vs not being there has never conveyed a meaning to me. I really would like to know how many things people were meaning, which I missed because of this. Or if people are interpreting my inclusion of standard punctation, with no meaning, as something more.

Re: A case for using punctuation in Slack

#140

Post by BeetleB » Mon, Oct 19, 2020, 9:24 PM UTC

musingsole wrote: post #129

Bedon292 wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have been chatting via text, as a major form of communication, for more than 20 years and at least 2/3s of my life. Before this thread, I have never even contemplated a period having any meaning more than the end of a though. And I certainly had no position of authority, so that didn't affect anything. I am really curious how this evolved, and how I missed it being something people think. My biases tend to lean tow…

It's not a new or unknown convention/perception (as shown by the article posted here discussing the pissed period in 2013). I can't tell you why you would've been unaware of it, and I certainly wouldn't want to offend by guessing! :P A lot of it has to be context. If I'm talking to someone new, I'm going to try very hard to read very little into the text they've sent me. If it's a message from my partner -- yeah, eve…

> It's not a new or unknown convention/perception (as shown by the article posted here discussing the pissed period in 2013)

2013 is new.

When you say:

> because experience generally proves out most people only use a period in a single statement message if they're emphasizing firmness

I suspect your experience is with one crowd, and older people's experience is not as much with that crowd. Furthermore, older people simply have a lot more experience by virtue of being older, so that statement is simply not true for them.

Texting and IM is more common amongst the younger crowd, so conventions are going to be more weighted towards their preferences. But the notion of a period being used for emphasis is limited to that crowd. For the majority of the population (and perhaps including those who are non-native English speakers), putting a period at the end is fairly normal, and considered correct.

Language is dynamic, so I don't doubt that in 20 years I'll be "wrong".