The 2020 census is being ‘sabotaged,’ says leading U.S. statistician • Hacker News Board

Re: The 2020 census is being ‘sabotaged,’ says leading U.S. statistician

#131

Post by hirundo » Sat, Oct 17, 2020, 2:44 PM UTC

solstice wrote: post #39

bo1024 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are many reasons. They discuss poverty in the article. I would agree with cultural distrust of government officials. And very importantly, everything around the citizenship question/issue. > The notion of these counts ever being used for enforcement — basically targeting high population, low citizenship-count blocks for ICE raids or whatever — that would be really, really problematic. Stepping back, think in ge…

Dutch census recording religion enabled the Nazis to quickly round up the Jews living there a few years later during the occupation

Data from the U.S. census of 1940 was used to round up Japanese Americans and put them into internment camps.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/retropolis/wp/2018/04/03...

Re: The 2020 census is being ‘sabotaged,’ says leading U.S. statistician

#132

Post by NelsonMinar » Sat, Oct 17, 2020, 2:46 PM UTC

CincinnatiMan wrote: post #3

> This means [it eliminated] literally a third of the time allocated for the Census Bureau to knock on doors, to try to enumerate the hard-to-count individuals, which happen to be African Americans, Latinx populations, immigrants, people in heavily transitory situations, tribal lands, some Asians. Random question but why would some races have more trouble than others responding to the census? Is it more to do with po…

Among other things, safety for minorities. The census is supposed to be secret and never used for any sort of law enforcement, etc. But in our living memory that protection was abused. The US census was used to help round up Americans of Japanese descent and put them in concentration camps in the 40s.

It'd be nice to think that could never happen again. But then you had the Trump people literally trying to put a citizenship question on the census despite every expert saying it was a mistake. The intent was clearly to intimidate (we have this in writing). The question ended up being left off but the damage was already somewhat done.

https://www.nytimes.com/2000/03/17/us/report-says-census-bur... https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/retropolis/wp/2018/04/03...

Re: The 2020 census is being ‘sabotaged,’ says leading U.S. statistician

#133

Post by yokaze » Sat, Oct 17, 2020, 2:46 PM UTC

TallGuyShort wrote: post #65

Schiendelman wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It really looks like you’re conflating policy with bureaucracy.

Open borders isn't their policy either. A census that just counts people isn't their policy either. Source: censuses I've taken under Democratic exrcutives asked me plenty of other questions. And even if those things were their policy, if the bureaucracy is still the same, what difference does it really make? The article concerns itself with links between how a bureaucracy is run and policies. This thread of conversa…

> Source: censuses I've taken under Democratic exrcutives asked me plenty of other questions.

That's not the point. The Supreme Court was convinced by the evidence presented (statements on record by people in the current administration) that the intend of the citizenship question was to reduce the count of people with illegal immigration status. So the question was intended to undermine the primary purpose of the census as mandated by the constitution: counting all the people.

Re: The 2020 census is being ‘sabotaged,’ says leading U.S. statistician

#134

Post by Broken_Hippo » Sat, Oct 17, 2020, 2:47 PM UTC

jimktrains2 wrote: post #76

cafard wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It uses the term "free Persons" but the context is "their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons". So "all other Persons", i.e. slaves, were counted.

Well, the 3/5 compromise has been removed, but even still are you arguing that immigrants aren't people or aren't free, i.e. not slaves.

Prisoners aren't free, but they still use infrastructure and I'm pretty sure they are supposed to be counted in the census.

Re: The 2020 census is being ‘sabotaged,’ says leading U.S. statistician

#135

Post by lordnacho » Sat, Oct 17, 2020, 2:47 PM UTC

amadeuspagel wrote: post #67

tasty_freeze wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Republican presidents placed 11 supreme court justices in a row, from Nixon through GH Bush. Clinton placed two, and republicans have been whining about needing to fix the liberal supreme court ever since. GW Bush placed two, Obama placed two, and it looks like Trump will place three. You are quoting someone, but I want to add on that "legislate from the bench" is a phrase that is invoked when the speaker doesn't agr…

> You are quoting someone, but I want to add on that "legislate from the bench" is a phrase that is invoked when the speaker doesn't agree with an outcome but never when they agree with an outcome. It means nothing. I like the outcome of Roe v. Wade but see it as an example of legislating from the bench.

There's also nothing wrong with that. The distinction between the different branches creating law is pretty vague. If congress makes a law and the court strikes it down, are they "legislating from the bench"? Or are they merely pointing out that the new law is incompatible with the rest of the laws?

The quote is right, law isn't just whatever the congressmen decide.

Re: The 2020 census is being ‘sabotaged,’ says leading U.S. statistician

#136

Post by cs702 » Sat, Oct 17, 2020, 2:48 PM UTC

Successful management of anything -- a startup, a corporation, or an entire country -- requires successful measurement.

Successful measurement requires collecting good, accurate data.

Sabotaging the census is tantamount to sabotaging the government's ability to run the country.

It's the sort of thing that in my mind should be able to happen only in poorly-run countries managed by corrupt regimes.

The leading statistician claiming that the census is being sabotaged, Robert Santos, was recently elected as President of the American Statistical Association. We should probably take his claims seriously.

I find it almost unbelievable that this is happening in the United States of America.

Re: The 2020 census is being ‘sabotaged,’ says leading U.S. statistician

#137

Post by tzs » Sat, Oct 17, 2020, 2:48 PM UTC

rubyist5eva wrote: post #41

cj wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Democratic Party using the judicial branch and SCOTUS to legislate from the bench because Hasn't the supreme court been majority conservative for quite some time? Not majority liberal? (unless your comment is sarcasm)

Anthony Kennedy was a swing vote and he retired in 2018, so no - it was not "majority conservative". Kennedy voted in the affirmative for both Planned Parenthood v. Casey and Obergefell v. Hodges, both of which both being particularly egregious examples of legislation from the bench. I am both pro gay marriage and pro-choice - but neither of these things exist in the Constitution. Not one word. Either amend the Const…

> I am both pro gay marriage and pro-choice - but neither of these things exist in the Constitution. Not one word.

Neither does straight marriage.

Re: The 2020 census is being ‘sabotaged,’ says leading U.S. statistician

#138

Post by NelsonMinar » Sat, Oct 17, 2020, 2:48 PM UTC

woo49 wrote: post #91

ccaleb wrote: post #85

This is only tangentially related, but I think it provides important context to this discussion about the motives of those involved. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/30/us/census-citizenship-que...

Both sides have ulterior motives. Counting illegal immigrants in the census helps Democrats because liberal states have more of them. This is just a fact. You may think we should still count as many of them in the census, that's fine. But don't pretend there is no issue with one side of the argument. Mentioning motives of one side but not the other is naive. It also prevents us from having a real conversation about t…

The entire purpose of the census is to count everyone. Citizens and non-citizens. Your attempt to make a "both sides" argument here is pitting the very constitutional purpose of the census against a racist party intent on suppressing representation for minorities.

Re: The 2020 census is being ‘sabotaged,’ says leading U.S. statistician

#139

Post by gamblor956 » Sat, Oct 17, 2020, 2:50 PM UTC

woo49 wrote: post #124

ComputerGuru wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that’s the whole point of the census. I agree Democrats wouldn’t care if it weren’t politically beneficial, but in this case their interest and the law coincide. Everyone, legal resident or not, should be counted. There’s zero legal /constitutional question about it. If you’re going to get angry every time someone does the right thing for the wrong reasons, I am afraid you’re in for a lifetime of disappointment.…

It’s not as simple. Essentially the vote of two US citizens does not count equally if you count everyone. If one lives in an area with more illegal immigrants, that US citizens votes foe him/her but also for the non voters in the area. This is not a ‘one person one vote’ situation and it’s a real concern if you believe in equal representation. Ideally you’d have a citizenship question and you count only citizens for…

That is not how the US census had ever worked. See the 3/5 Compromise.

Re: The 2020 census is being ‘sabotaged,’ says leading U.S. statistician

#140

Post by eganist » Sat, Oct 17, 2020, 2:50 PM UTC

woo49 wrote: post #124

ComputerGuru wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that’s the whole point of the census. I agree Democrats wouldn’t care if it weren’t politically beneficial, but in this case their interest and the law coincide. Everyone, legal resident or not, should be counted. There’s zero legal /constitutional question about it. If you’re going to get angry every time someone does the right thing for the wrong reasons, I am afraid you’re in for a lifetime of disappointment.…

It’s not as simple. Essentially the vote of two US citizens does not count equally if you count everyone. If one lives in an area with more illegal immigrants, that US citizens votes foe him/her but also for the non voters in the area. This is not a ‘one person one vote’ situation and it’s a real concern if you believe in equal representation. Ideally you’d have a citizenship question and you count only citizens for…

> Essentially the vote of two US citizens does not count equally if you count everyone.

It's not just about the vote. Redistricting is one aspect of it, sure, but it's not the sole reason a census is done.

It's done primarily to predict tax revenues, predict infrastructure needs, predict growth patterns, support municipal planning, etc., all of which are necessities for projects that often span decades.

If you're concerned about the vote, deal with the challenge posed by the electoral college instead. The Census is used for too many other things to be manipulated for the sake of political interests by one party.