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Microsoft is letting employees work from home permanently

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Re: Microsoft is letting employees work from home permanently

#131

Post by davidf560 »

ghaff wrote: post #78
kethinov wrote: post #67

Buried in the article they also talk about cutting the pay of people who move away from big cities based on their "geopay" scale, a new trend that I have a hard time seeing as anything other than corporate greed we should vigorously oppose. I understand not every company can afford to do Basecamp's "pay everyone SF wages" thing, but any company can afford to set uniform pay grades at some level and one would think th…

The problem is that if (even just keeping the discussion to the US) a company pays, say, Chicago wages everywhere, that means they effectively probably can't hire anyone in the Bay Area for example. Of course, a lot of companies already basically don't try to salary match the hire who has an offer from Facebook or Google in SV and wants to work there.

Maybe this is overly simplistic, but won't this all work itself out over time? More companies refuse to pay inflated SV salaries (note: most companies in the world already do not employ people there anyway), so some of the concentrated SV talent leaves for other places like Chicago where they can still get a sufficient wage relative to the cost of living. This continues for a while and eventually the COL in SV will start to equalize with other places in the country like Chicago, won't it?

Perhaps the real message here is that SV companies are realizing this is a perfect way to get out of paying $300-500K salaries for jobs that are more like $150K anywhere else in the US. It's kind of like the outsourcing craze from 15 years ago, except instead of getting 3-5 developers for the price of 1 by going to Europe or Asia, SV companies can get 3-5 developers for the price of 1 that are still US-based and only a couple of timezones away.

As someone who doesn't live in California but still near a big city in an area that is still "expensive" (but nowhere near SV prices) relative to smaller towns and rural areas, I can't figure out if this remote shift is a good thing or bad thing for me yet. I fear that my suburban house will be worth less going forward because proximity to a major city may be way less valuable now if so many fewer people ever physically go into work anymore.

Re: Microsoft is letting employees work from home permanently

#132

Post by deepakhj »

mmmmmbop wrote: post #105
marketingPro wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I put most blame on the American Medical Association who is a top lobbyist and created the Physician cartel. 300 to 600k per year salaries are not natural, German Physicians don't make that much or go to school for as long yet have similar outcomes.

While the physician salaries in the U.S. are indeed much higher than in Germany, I believe the time to become a fully accredited doctor is roughly the same. In the U.S. it's 8 years of school plus a 3- to 7-year residency program, versus 6.5 years of school plus a 5- to 6-year residency program in Germany.

Medical school in Germany is also free.

Re: Microsoft is letting employees work from home permanently

#133

Post by wrkronmiller »

koheripbal wrote: post #119
ghaff wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that if (even just keeping the discussion to the US) a company pays, say, Chicago wages everywhere, that means they effectively probably can't hire anyone in the Bay Area for example. Of course, a lot of companies already basically don't try to salary match the hire who has an offer from Facebook or Google in SV and wants to work there.

The ultimate outcome, no matter what companies do, is that tech workers just won't live in big cities any longer. If remote work is an option, then paying high rents just doesn't make sense. Moreover, as this trend continues, the ultimate outcome is not US workers moving to low-cost locations, it is foreign workers supplanting US workers in extremely low cost locations.

I don't buy this.

> If remote work is an option, then paying high rents just doesn't make sense.

I live in NYC because I like NYC, not because the pay is higher. I took a net pay cut after rent, taxes, etc after moving here from Maryland, in spite of getting a substantial pay rise. I suspect that's not uncommon.

> the ultimate outcome is not US workers moving to low-cost locations, it is foreign workers supplanting US workers in extremely low cost locations.

This was already on the table. Generally speaking, you get what you pay for.

Re: Microsoft is letting employees work from home permanently

#134

Post by mad_vill »

gghhjj wrote: post #15

A lot of info is missed here as well. Sales orgs (quite a large part of Microsoft) must still work from the office (with exceptions) and cannot relocate as they need to meet customers - including the technical sales. Even though they've worked fine from home and were in fact MORE productive. So a lot of nuance is missed, and the application of this isn't as broad as it is suggested.

Friendly with a bunch of people in sales at msft. Most people in those roles were on the road 60% percent of the time before covid. If anything they were the most remote friendly org considering a team for a product will have regional posts, so team meetings were always over the phone.

Re: Microsoft is letting employees work from home permanently

#135

Post by ptero »

_qulr wrote: post #124
nugget wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People in tech do seem to value time which may explain why they are disproportionately drawn to the "Financial Independence, Retire Early" (FIRE) movement. The tech industry continues to be much more supportive of 80 hour weeks until you strike it rich and "retire" early, than it is of steady part-time work over many decades of steady-state work-life balance. But the motivation may be the same for many.

I think the motivation is actually age discrimination. It's often much harder to find a job when you're older, so you have to strike it rich when you're younger.

I do not see this around me at all. There is probably some truth in this for the FAANG "work 80 hrs a week, get rich in 5 years" jobs (probably because those who want to work 80+ hours a week and get rich quick-er tend to be young folks without major commitments).

However, there are plenty of people around me who are in the 40-60 age bracket, who work in tech, are financially comfortable (even though they do not get FAANG-type salaries), do not work crazy hours and (at least pre-COVID) had no problem changing jobs if the current one became toxic or boring. My 2c.

Re: Microsoft is letting employees work from home permanently

#136

Post by wrs »

ethanwillis wrote: post #130
_qulr wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the motivation is actually age discrimination. It's often much harder to find a job when you're older, so you have to strike it rich when you're younger.

I'm not even 30 and I was told in a reply to a comment where I suggested a research paper from the 70s, "This is what's wrong with you old people, you just want us to read all of this irrelevant stuff". The irony is the replier was 10 years older than me. So the age discrimination bias is so prevalent even older people buy into it.

Yeesh, that’s a doubly-stupid comment...thinking not only that “old people” must be wrong but that “old papers” must be irrelevant.

Re: Microsoft is letting employees work from home permanently

#137

Post by matwood »

cbm-vic-20 wrote: post #97
dsr_ wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the USA has a fundamentally broken healthcare system, which it propagandizes as the best in the world despite actual evidence that it is not.

As an American, I do believe that the US has some of the best doctors, research, and medical technology in the world. I also believe it's really, really expensive, and out of reach for too much of our population, largely due to how to tie health insurance plans to employment. That makes sense in industries with a high injury rate, but the US doesn't have that kind of economy anymore.

I think you've hit on why it's also so hard to change the system in the US. Quite a number of people do have this great care. They work (or are trapped working) for big companies or the gov. who subsidize their health insurance. They simply don't understand when people say the US has all these issues because for them there are no issues.

This is just another example of the US being a place where the gap between the haves and have nots is extremely large.

Re: Microsoft is letting employees work from home permanently

#138

Post by davidf560 »

w0utert wrote: post #79
kethinov wrote: post #67

Buried in the article they also talk about cutting the pay of people who move away from big cities based on their "geopay" scale, a new trend that I have a hard time seeing as anything other than corporate greed we should vigorously oppose. I understand not every company can afford to do Basecamp's "pay everyone SF wages" thing, but any company can afford to set uniform pay grades at some level and one would think th…

A policy like this is basically saying 'we only pay you as much as necessary to compete with your other employment options', which are currently still mostly those near where you are living. If more companies allow remote work and they don't all do the same thing, this kind of 'geopay' policy will have to be abandoned. But I agree it's completely backwards, you should be paid according to the value you create for the…

> you should be paid according to the value you create for the company, and nothing else

But, you need to subtract your pay from the value you create. If you create $1MM value but cost $500K, and someone in the Midwest can create that same $1MM value for only $150K, it's pretty obvious what most companies will choose.

FAANG companies somehow convinced themselves that paying $500K for talent in SV made sense even if they could get similar talent basically anywhere else in the US for less. This massive WFH experiment that we've all been in seems to have demonstrated to some of them that physical location doesn't really matter as much as they thought. The next logical step is that paying inflated rates to hire someone in a particular physical location doesn't make sense, if you're just going to have them work remote anyway.

WFH may just be the pin that burst the SV tech wage bubble.

Re: Microsoft is letting employees work from home permanently

#139

Post by borroka »

cbm-vic-20 wrote: post #97
dsr_ wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the USA has a fundamentally broken healthcare system, which it propagandizes as the best in the world despite actual evidence that it is not.

As an American, I do believe that the US has some of the best doctors, research, and medical technology in the world. I also believe it's really, really expensive, and out of reach for too much of our population, largely due to how to tie health insurance plans to employment. That makes sense in industries with a high injury rate, but the US doesn't have that kind of economy anymore.

Plenty of European countries offer the same if not better technology, health service, and professionalism. I had 3 surgeries in the US, 2 were so and so, 1 was "botched" in one of the most prestigious hospitals in the US (Stanford). Treated of course like no more than someone whose insurance is paying, not a follow up beyond what is required by law. I would much prefer to have my next (hopefully in a distant future) surgery in my native European country. And at least they tend to see you as a human and not a cash cow.

Re: Microsoft is letting employees work from home permanently

#140

Post by elindbe2 »

ahelwer wrote: post #3

The really interesting thing here is the possibility of part-time work. I recently switched from full-time work to independent contracting, and have a single part-time contract while looking for a second. Honestly, part-time contracting work is really, really nice. The pay is more than enough to live on and I have a ton of free time which I am devoting to rock climbing, finally writing a bunch of blog posts, and lear…

This is my dream! I recently moved and working from home is great but I keep thinking to myself "gosh I really don't have 8 hours a day to spend working."
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