How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry • Hacker News Board

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#131

Post by chrisseaton » Wed, Oct 07, 2020, 9:26 PM UTC

polygotdomain wrote: post #121

chrisseaton wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A union is just an organization which represents the interests of workers. A union isn't just that, though is it? It's also a beast in its own right, with its own politics and power struggles and debates and meetings and people taking a paycheck from your union dues. A union doesn't even necessarily act in your interests. It acts in the interests of the majority of members, who may be out to actively harm your inte…

This perspective is frustrating, as it paints unions as an entirely negative endeavor. They're not and there are trade offs. Those trade offs may be a net positive or a net negative, but only highlighting the negative doesn't do any good. >with its own politics and power struggles and debates and meetings... A union doesn't even necessarily act in your interests. It acts in the interests of the majority of members If…

'Just don't join' doesn't work. Unions often bully or ostracise people who refuse to join. Sometimes they're in practice closed-shops, like the Screen Actors' Guild, even though this isn't supposed to be allowed in law. In some cases unions use violence against 'scabs' and other people who resist.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#132

Post by username90 » Wed, Oct 07, 2020, 9:26 PM UTC

heavyset_go wrote: post #126

dpc_pw wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know who, and I agree that in theory they could. In practice though, I fear, they will be overtaken by parasites, will advance bureaucratic BS, political opinions, protections for people who game the system, start mandating nonsense technological choices, hurt the efficiency, and just drive the well-paying industry into a ground, forcing capital to just move software companies into places that are better for…

> forcing capital to just move software companies into places that are better for business. Surely this would have been the case for movie studios, given that every actor they do business with is a member of SAG-AFTRA. Movie stars can command multi-million dollar contracts with studios with the help of SAG-AFTRA, and the same union protects everyone down to the background actors. Yet studios remain in the US despite…

Engineers are a lot more fungible than movie stars.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#133

Post by Apocryphon » Wed, Oct 07, 2020, 9:28 PM UTC

renewiltord wrote: post #123

Apocryphon wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're unhappy with a direction of an organization, you may feel a moment of sadness, but then you can go and find likeminded people unhappy with the direction of the group and found a new one. fwiw, I don't see many comments in that thread calling for labor unions.

Sure, but if I make the Brazen Bull, and someone else gets it, they're going to put me in the Brazen Bull with my like-minded compatriots, which sort of interrupts the "found a new one" part. Those guys are waiting on the sidelines and they're stronger than you so when you make the weapon they will take it from you and they'll point it at me. You're no opponent to me, but I've got the Maginot Line and you're the Low…

If your argument relies on the abstract notion that something created can be weaponized against you, then you can extend that argument to any form of human creation or even human self-perpetuation. In which case then your own defense against something being used against you might as well be existential suicide, because in your view the game is so inherently stacked against you, the only winning move is not to play.

Why do I say your argument relies on an abstract notion? Because you've not provided any evidence that any of the efforts to unionize in the U.S. tech industry- whether the Kickstarter union, or the TWC, or any other fledgling efforts to organize- constitute an actual threat to immigration. Sure, you've provided evidence that there are anti-immigrant voices in the industry, and that is definitely a cause for concern. That said, you haven't established any material link that the two distinct phenomena are connected. There's no evidence that anti-H-1B nativists are agitating for unionizing in tech. And no, the US Tech Workers Trojan horse [0] does not count. The only comment you cite is yourself making the case for them and one commentator agreeing with you. Hardly an entire Know-Nothing movement.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24536273

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24536757

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#134

Post by kodablah » Wed, Oct 07, 2020, 9:28 PM UTC

abeppu wrote: post #3

I find this interesting because I don't fully understand how tech became so opposed to unions. Many in our industry are quite jaded about the poor behavior of large corporations. Perhaps there are also reasons to be distrustful of unions. But mostly we accept working with or doing business with the former, and entirely eschewing the latter. Why have we decided that untrustworthy, sometimes poorly managed organization…

> I don't fully understand how tech became so opposed to unions

I suspect it's due to the fact that while unions help the whole, they can remove the individual leverage during negotiations for salary and working conditions that many, especially seniors, want to preserve. Unions are often seen as a step towards developer commoditization which, like hour tracking, puzzle-based interviews, and other practices that de-individualize devs, is frowned upon by many. Some people just don't want to have to bargain collectively.

Granted, while some unions allow all sorts of single-employee exceptions, one can bet a company would choose to treat the goose and the gander the same when given guidelines on what the lowest common denominator is.

> Many in our industry are quite jaded about the poor behavior of large corporations

Yeah, but not _their_ organization, or they'd go elsewhere (jobs are not currently very constrained).

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#135

Post by TT3351 » Wed, Oct 07, 2020, 9:29 PM UTC

eplanit wrote: post #6

gedy wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a lot of it is that in-demand, well paid workers don't have patience for the BS work rules that unions are notorious for. It might be unfair characterization, but "you can't change/test that code, that's role X", and other such bureaucracy can be really draining.

Unions are the antithesis of a meritocracy. Try promoting based on seniority over merit in a tech. business, and I doubt you'll stay competitive for very long. I don't know if kickstarter counts as a pure "tech company". They use technology, but they don't create it. Their customers are activists, so it's not surprising that their employees are, too.

Whenever I see "meritocracy" used like this, my hair stands on end. From Wikipedia:

"Although the concept has existed for centuries, the term "meritocracy" is relatively new. It was used pejoratively by British politician and sociologist Michael Dunlop Young in his 1958 satirical essay The Rise of the Meritocracy, which pictured the United Kingdom under the rule of a government favouring intelligence and aptitude (merit) above all else, being the combination of the root of Latin origin "merit" (from "mereō" meaning "earn") and the Ancient Greek suffix "-cracy" (meaning "power", "rule")... In this book the term had distinctly negative connotations as Young questioned both the legitimacy of the selection process used to become a member of this elite and the outcomes of being ruled by such a narrowly defined group."

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#136

Post by dpc_pw » Wed, Oct 07, 2020, 9:30 PM UTC

airza wrote: post #97

dpc_pw wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unions are just another idea that sounds great on paper, only if you don't consider second and third order effects. They don't serve the workers, they serve themselves (like pretty much any organization). Tech workers are in so much demand that they don't really suffer such a disparity of negotiating power, like workers in other industries. Many software companies offer equity, which makes employers the shareholders.…

The thing that you seem to be missing is that you need labor organization to achieve those things en masse. The current 40 hour workweek we enjoy and the weekends we have off are because of the organized labor movement in the US. If your choices are between working for one of several capital-owned tech conglomerates, or accepting their money for the runway to compete in the current business climate, can you really ca…

> The current 40 hour workweek we enjoy and the weekends we have off are because of the organized labor movement in the US.

Arguably it was achieved first and foremost because increase in productivity caused by capital investments actually made it economically possible.

I mean, I don't deny that 19th century capitalists required a little bit of a "push" for it to actually happen, but it's debatable if it was actually necessary and wouldn't just happen naturally.

> class consciousness

That's a part of political opinion, that I just don't share. I was born in family of a blue collar family of a coal miner and school janitor, now I'm a intellectual worker, and in a way I already joined "evil capitalist class" and hope to entrench myself in it even more with time.

Thinking in people having assigned "classes" is just so a low-resolution way to look at complex reality, that it is just not helpful.

> If your choices are between working for one of several capital-owned tech conglomerates, or accepting their money for the runway to compete in the current business climate, can you really call that an even playing field?

I just don't think labor organizations help with anything. What helps is having more options (competition), better social mobility (access to education and knowledge) and general economic prosperity that allow entrepreneurship (taking risks). Labor unions typically work against all of it.

I do know that field is not level, but I just think naive ways to trying to level it make more harm than good.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#137

Post by username90 » Wed, Oct 07, 2020, 9:31 PM UTC

polygotdomain wrote: post #121

chrisseaton wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A union is just an organization which represents the interests of workers. A union isn't just that, though is it? It's also a beast in its own right, with its own politics and power struggles and debates and meetings and people taking a paycheck from your union dues. A union doesn't even necessarily act in your interests. It acts in the interests of the majority of members, who may be out to actively harm your inte…

This perspective is frustrating, as it paints unions as an entirely negative endeavor. They're not and there are trade offs. Those trade offs may be a net positive or a net negative, but only highlighting the negative doesn't do any good. >with its own politics and power struggles and debates and meetings... A union doesn't even necessarily act in your interests. It acts in the interests of the majority of members If…

> don't join the union.

This isn't an option in USA unless you live in a right to work state. The US left pushes hard against right to work, meaning everyone will be forced to join workplace unions when/if they are formed. This includes basically all tech hotspots including California and New York, if your colleagues organizes a union there you will be forced to join. This include this Kickstarter union btw, likely a lot of its members don't actually want to be a part of the union.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#138

Post by dmurray » Wed, Oct 07, 2020, 9:34 PM UTC

kristopolous wrote: post #61

throw_m239339 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Tech workers are in so much demand that they don't really suffer such a disparity of negotiating power, like workers in other industries. In USA that is, things can be very different abroad.

Not only but when industrial unions came to power, industrial workers were the highest demand profession. United artists, AFTRA, WGA, DGA, all formed when their skills were in high demand. There's a natural employer/employee power dynamic that even Adam Smith talks about. If his fanboys only read his books they'd know that.

This is true, but it doesn't stem from union organisers opportunistically seizing the best moment to negotiate. Rather, some people are always trying to organise collective action, management usually calls their bluff, and the striking employees end up coming back to work or being replaced. When they can't be replaced easily or they have alternatives to coming back to work, management is forced to the negotiating table.

There's an alternative narrative where the government steps in and says hey, you have to allow unions. In practice, while some government support is necessary, this doesn't seem to lead to powerful unions in the same way.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#139

Post by polygotdomain » Wed, Oct 07, 2020, 9:36 PM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #131

polygotdomain wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This perspective is frustrating, as it paints unions as an entirely negative endeavor. They're not and there are trade offs. Those trade offs may be a net positive or a net negative, but only highlighting the negative doesn't do any good. >with its own politics and power struggles and debates and meetings... A union doesn't even necessarily act in your interests. It acts in the interests of the majority of members If…

'Just don't join' doesn't work. Unions often bully or ostracise people who refuse to join. Sometimes they're in practice closed-shops, like the Screen Actors' Guild, even though this isn't supposed to be allowed in law. In some cases unions use violence against 'scabs' and other people who resist.

I like how a non-existent tech union is instantly popping up out of nowhere with both a massive bureaucracy, and a squad of enforcers to beat people up for not joining.

Please, stop bringing up historical anecdotes as reasons why a tech union wouldn't work. It's funny how you don't bring up things like strong health care and training as anecdotes on the other side.

The question of whether or not there will be "union shops" or not is still yet to be seen. Whether or not there would be is a question of the union and the employers (i.e. TBD).

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#140

Post by username90 » Wed, Oct 07, 2020, 9:36 PM UTC

heavyset_go wrote: post #129

username90 wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't need US style unions to achieve any of those, as history shows. Workers should have the right to form political organizations, yes, but forcing your colleagues to join your political organization doesn't make sense.

Nobody is forcing you to work a union job. You're free to apply and work wherever you want.

Right, which is why there are basically no unionized software engineering jobs in USA. I'd rather not be forced to change jobs just because you want to join a union. Your love for strict unions means that most people who want a software union isn't allowed to get one since most of their colleagues don't want one.