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Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

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Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#131

Post by deminature »

serjester wrote: post #99

Completely anecdotal but I bring this question up every time I drive in an Uber and overwhelmingly the drivers tell me they want to stay independent. No one is forcing drivers into their jobs. I really struggle to understand why we need bureaucrats imposing their idea of what a market should look like on an fairly efficient market. From my experience the drivers are perfectly aware of the costs that go into driving s…

The RideShareGuy is the most prominent blog for drivers and their annual survey seems to reflect that [1]

>66% of drivers said they wanted to be independent contractors vs 15.8% who wanted to be an employee

[1] https://therideshareguy.com/uber-driver-survey/

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#132

Post by square90 »

marcinzm wrote: post #108
throwawaygh wrote: post #72

When companies like Uber/Lyft depend on safety nets like unemployment without ever paying into the system, what’s happening is that our children are paying for returns on VC capital. People profiting from these types of companies should feel bad about themselves.

Huh? As I understand it Uber/Lyft drivers are not eligible for unemployment benefits (recent laws/court rulings aside). So they don't depend on the safety nets in any way. edit: Unemployment insurance is paid by companies for their workers who may use it in the future. It's not a shared social obligation from taxes. Nor is everyone eligible to use it merely by existing.

The CARES Act and state-level programs are paying unemployment assistance to contractors and self-employed individuals not usually covered by unemployment [0], [1].

[0] https://www.edd.ca.gov/about_edd/coronavirus-2019/pandemic-u...

[1] https://www.edd.ca.gov/about_edd/coronavirus-2019/cares-act....

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#133

Post by bhupy »

supergirl wrote: post #69
bhupy wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, status quo policy isn't gospel, and a minimum wage isn't necessarily the best solution to the problems it aims to solve.

it's the best because it was chosen by the people of a democracy (more or less). if it's not good they can change it

The democratic process has been known to produce sub-optimal results. The only way to correct those results is to criticize the status quo. This is all part of the democratic process...

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#134

Post by ribosometronome »

jayd16 wrote: post #122
yibg wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does that even mean? We're monsters for giving people choice?

The market has previously decided unsafe factories and child labor is ideal. Often market forces are great but empirically they do not solve every case and as a society we must evaluate each case accordingly.

Cocoa for chocolate, materials for phones, etc show that the market continues to be just fine with practices like child slavery. Alternatives may exist but most companies are still "striving" rather than there.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#135

Post by macinjosh »

matmann2001 wrote: post #102
macinjosh wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're gas lighting us by ignoring the fact that this personal risk is taken at personal choice. If someone wanted the arrangement that comes with an employee/employer relationship there are jobs that offer that. But not everyone wants that, some people prefer, for their own reasons that are really none of your business to be an independent contractor. This is about choice plain and simple.

I think you're gas lighting us by ignoring the fact that these types of choices aren't fully unconstrained. People aren't assuming this risk because they prefer to, but rather they have limited choices available to them given their resources and background.

> but rather they have limited choices available to them given their resources and background.

So let's take one more choice away!? Not every person looking to make some money is looking for something with as much commitment as employment. Not every business needs people to work according to their schedule at a specific place. While you think you're giving full-time employment and benefits to all of these people what you're really doing is taking certain kinds of opportunities away.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#136

Post by dcftoapv »

lovecg wrote: post #123
serjester wrote: post #99

Completely anecdotal but I bring this question up every time I drive in an Uber and overwhelmingly the drivers tell me they want to stay independent. No one is forcing drivers into their jobs. I really struggle to understand why we need bureaucrats imposing their idea of what a market should look like on an fairly efficient market. From my experience the drivers are perfectly aware of the costs that go into driving s…

The talking points I heard was that this was done because of 1) Payroll tax revenue 2) Unions feeling threatened The implication is in either case it’s an explicitly hostile action by the government in favor of special interests, and the majority of drivers did not want this. Can anyone more knowledgeable on the topic pitch in — is there any truth to these arguments?

The Los Angeles taxi union prevented (read: bribed and coerced) the state / city government from installing a train from LAX to DTLA because they were rolling in cash.

Then, they got pissed about Uber, and had a rule enacted that forced passengers to take a bus to an external lot which turned the world's worst airport congestion into a way worse situation.

It is not unrealistic to think that they are a driving force behind this situation as well. California is corrupt as fuck, from GM paying LA to take out way more efficient train lines so they could sell buses to Beverly Hills preventing LA from building a subway. It makes living here absolutely miserable.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#137

Post by theroo »

JMTQp8lwXL wrote: post #129
serjester wrote: post #99

Completely anecdotal but I bring this question up every time I drive in an Uber and overwhelmingly the drivers tell me they want to stay independent. No one is forcing drivers into their jobs. I really struggle to understand why we need bureaucrats imposing their idea of what a market should look like on an fairly efficient market. From my experience the drivers are perfectly aware of the costs that go into driving s…

They want to stay independent, fine. Then actually treat them like independent contractors. Let them set rates. Let them decline rides without facing penalties by the platform. Make the changes necessary to fit the independent contractor model. And not just the rideshare company, but the state too: these workers need unemployment insurance, as Covid has shown, and somebody needs to pay for it: be it the workers or th…

This is a key point, well made.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#138

Post by lovich »

cltby wrote: post #121
vore wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How are we not paying into the social safety net? That's literally what we as individuals pay for with taxes.

My comment was a (lame) play on the inane parent. Maybe you're paying, and maybe you're not. But if you are, you're doing so grudgingly. "I wouldn't have to pay taxes to support this gigantic welfare state I've repeatedly voted for if only greedy Uber and Lyft would pay for my moral principles!"

You can want a social safety net and also be upset at the free rider problem

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#139

Post by ReaLNero »

yoz-y wrote: post #64
tetrometal wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I genuinely don't understand this position. I don't see how replacing a "bad" option with no option helps anyone, especially the people that were willing to take the "bad" option.

The goal of regulation is to stop the race of the bottom at some point.

Is it? By regulating, you'll just create an artificial shortage.

This is microeconomics 101.

If you have a competitive equilibrium, you can't improve the situation for consumers and producers by just regulating prices.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#140

Post by [deleted] »

tedivm wrote: post #83
blakesterz wrote: post #6

"Uber and Lyft say drivers prefer the flexibility of working as freelancers, while labor unions and elected officials contend this deprives them of traditional benefits like health insurance and workers’ compensation." I was curious about what drivers think. I guess they're not happy [1] but want to be independent contractors still [2]. 1. https://therideshareguy.com/uber-driver-survey/ 2. (In a May online survey dra…

That survey has been thrown around a lot, but there are a lot of problems with it. A big issue is that the survey was explicitly of people who follow a specific website (and potentially align with that websites opinions). Another is that once you explain that California allows flexible schedules even for employees a lot of people who say they want to stay independent contractors change their mind. The biggest thing t…

[deleted]
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