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Boeing 747s receive software updates over floppy disks

theregister.com

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Re: Boeing 747s receive software updates over floppy disks

#131

Post by jacquesm »

Osiris wrote: post #72
hindsightbias wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is interesting that people don't think on these scales. What percentage of the HN crowd has developed something that has had (or will have) a 10, 20 or 40 year life span? Because I've seen a bit of that and it's what makes the world go round. There's certainly a lot of bad/crazy stuff out there but wonder if the ephemeral fashions of today will stand the tests of time.

I built a relatively simple system over 10 years ago that ran on PHP and MySQL. Over the years, the company I built the product for has come back to me to upgrade PHP and MySQL after a security scan. The problem is the software was build for PHP 5.4, and they want it running on the latest (7.4). It doesn't. I managed to get it running on the latest security release of 7.1 with a few days of work (I had to make code c…

I charge my proofreaders a euro every time they miss 'built' spelled as 'built'. It's been a pretty steady money maker, that one. I make a ton of spelling errors as well so who am I to cast that particular stone but the built-with-a-t one seems particular hard to get rid of even when you know about it.

Must be some cognitive blind spot.

Re: Boeing 747s receive software updates over floppy disks

#132

Post by vosper »

mtbnut wrote: post #106

I worked in HAWK missiles in the Marine Corps for many years. This doesn’t surprise me one bit. In 1994, Block II launchers were still effectively using vacuum tubes. In fact, I still recall the one that faulted the most, from its label in the FM: relay K-9! Ninety-percent of launcher issues were attributed to that old relic of a tube. Then, in 1995, Raytheon came out with Block III updates, which replaced the entire…

If I've understood Wikipedia correctly, what it's calling "Phase 2" of the Hawk missile program [0] is when some vacuum tubes were replaced.

There are 12 countries (including some rich ones) listed as using the Phase 1 upgrade of the missile, which is presumably still full of vacuum tubes [1]. This is the 30 year old upgrade to a missile developed 60 years ago.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIM-23_Hawk#Development [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIM-23_Hawk#Phase_I

Re: Boeing 747s receive software updates over floppy disks

#133

Post by robotresearcher »

reaperducer wrote: post #30

Did it work? Yes. Was it secure? Yes. So, what's the problem? Updating 30-year-old gear with media from its era seems to make sense. If they were really wedded to digital media and needed to bridge that gap, Sony used to make a floppy disk that you could jam a memory stick into and it would read in a normal 3½ inch floppy drive. Very cool gadget.

> So, what's the problem?

Eventually, sourcing replacement media and drives.

Re: Boeing 747s receive software updates over floppy disks

#134

Post by lozaning »

virtue3 wrote: post #49
arethuza wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have built applications that have been around for 10 to 15 years. The only thing that would have been good is to know in advance which ones will last that long - one was a temporary proof of concept!

The jerks always say that it will be 'temporary' and we can redo it later. HAH

We never have the money to do it right the first time, instead we always find the money to do it a second time.

Re: Boeing 747s receive software updates over floppy disks

#135

Post by pc86 »

crispyporkbites wrote: post #121
echelon wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> each with an NSN price tag of $170,000 per This is why we don't have decent public health care. That's obscene.

not really - how many software and hardware engineers do you think you need for this? probably minimum 10, maybe 20-30 realistically. At SV salaries (you need the best engineers, right?) that's $9m USD/annum. You need to ship at least 50 of these devices to break even. To get a proper margin and cover all the other costs (manufacturing, sales, marketing, compliance, accounting, yada), you're probably going to need to…

It depends what you mean by "SV salaries" but defense contractor developers can make a lot of money, especially compared to other software jobs in the NOVA/Maryland area (which are not paid nearly as well as SV).

Re: Boeing 747s receive software updates over floppy disks

#136

Post by user5994461 »

hindsightbias wrote: post #34
ir77 wrote: post #12

i'm surprised that people are surprised by this. i work for aerospace, and this is fairly typical -- albeit not floppy disk examples, but we keep a bunch of old laptops running win 7 and other examples around, hound around for them and spare parts. these machines are off the network, etc. these systems were developed 20+ years ago and per contract the a manufacture is obligated to maintain them for the service life,…

It is interesting that people don't think on these scales. What percentage of the HN crowd has developed something that has had (or will have) a 10, 20 or 40 year life span? Because I've seen a bit of that and it's what makes the world go round. There's certainly a lot of bad/crazy stuff out there but wonder if the ephemeral fashions of today will stand the tests of time.

>>> What percentage of the HN crowd has developed something that has had (or will have) a 10, 20 or 40 year life span?

Did that a lot when I was working at a major US bank (JP Morgan). All the critical software I worked on was planned for 10-20 years in my mind. Some of the work was upgrading/rewriting ancient things that have been there for 15 years, sometimes mostly untouched. Wrote some blog posts about it.

The most remarkable legacy system I have seen : That one was 13 years old, upgraded and half rewritten with bug to bug compatibility, 99% sure it will still be there in 13 years. https://thehftguy.com/2020/07/09/the-most-remarkable-legacy-...

Retired the last Perl software in the bank, rewrote in python and made sure it works on 2.6 and 2.7 and 3.7 to cover the upcoming decade. That software was handling in the order of a trillion dollars per day, wouldn't be surprised if it's still there in 30 years. https://thehftguy.com/2020/06/26/are-banks-still-using-perl-...

Re: Boeing 747s receive software updates over floppy disks

#137

Post by snypher »

crispyporkbites wrote: post #121
echelon wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> each with an NSN price tag of $170,000 per This is why we don't have decent public health care. That's obscene.

not really - how many software and hardware engineers do you think you need for this? probably minimum 10, maybe 20-30 realistically. At SV salaries (you need the best engineers, right?) that's $9m USD/annum. You need to ship at least 50 of these devices to break even. To get a proper margin and cover all the other costs (manufacturing, sales, marketing, compliance, accounting, yada), you're probably going to need to…

They produced approx 40,000 between '59 and '94, so around 1,000 a year. So I would assume they broke even.

Re: Boeing 747s receive software updates over floppy disks

#138

Post by robocat »

jacquesm wrote: post #131
Osiris wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I built a relatively simple system over 10 years ago that ran on PHP and MySQL. Over the years, the company I built the product for has come back to me to upgrade PHP and MySQL after a security scan. The problem is the software was build for PHP 5.4, and they want it running on the latest (7.4). It doesn't. I managed to get it running on the latest security release of 7.1 with a few days of work (I had to make code c…

I charge my proofreaders a euro every time they miss 'built' spelled as 'built'. It's been a pretty steady money maker, that one. I make a ton of spelling errors as well so who am I to cast that particular stone but the built-with-a-t one seems particular hard to get rid of even when you know about it . Must be some cognitive blind spot.

> 'built' spelled as 'built'

Did autocorrect “fix” your intentional misspelling for you?

Re: Boeing 747s receive software updates over floppy disks

#139

Post by justapassenger »

HeyLaughingBoy wrote: post #110
justapassenger wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to forget about economy of scale. Sure, void will be filled, but you'll get worse, and more expensive solutions. Economy of scale is ruthless. And this isn't only talking about software you put on the devices. Developer environment is going to degrade even more and more. It's already bad experience to develop stuff for things that need long term support, and with cloud trends, it'll only get worse, as set of…

I've spent basically my entire career working on systems that need long-term support and my experience indicates otherwise.

Have you tried working on the other side of the fence? I did work in both areas and differences are huge.

Re: Boeing 747s receive software updates over floppy disks

#140

Post by ChrisLomont »

snypher wrote: post #137
crispyporkbites wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

not really - how many software and hardware engineers do you think you need for this? probably minimum 10, maybe 20-30 realistically. At SV salaries (you need the best engineers, right?) that's $9m USD/annum. You need to ship at least 50 of these devices to break even. To get a proper margin and cover all the other costs (manufacturing, sales, marketing, compliance, accounting, yada), you're probably going to need to…

They produced approx 40,000 between '59 and '94, so around 1,000 a year. So I would assume they broke even.

That's not the device in question.
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