Science and scientific expertise are more important than ever • Hacker News Board

Re: Science and scientific expertise are more important than ever

#131

Post by giardini » Wed, Aug 05, 2020, 7:37 PM UTC

mistermann wrote: post #104

ohduran wrote: post #34

Maybe the reason we are in this mess is because we relied too much on science, and too little on actual humanities (rhetoric, logic, and so on)? I hear about hermeneutics more and more in my circle: how to communicate trumps what is communicated. I can see why Fauci and many top scientists fail to convince people like Trump and his supporters: he knows, but can't communicate what he knows so that information is conve…

> he knows, but can't communicate what he knows One example of this was when he knowingly misled (as one player in a coordinated effort) the public about the usefulness of the general public wearing masks at the initial outbreak of the pandemic. Now that the truth came out, Trump supporters have indeed latched onto this as proof that what the medical establishment says is not always true. Whether the benefit was wort…

mistermann says>" Now that the truth came out,... "

Are you sure of the truth?

In recent news, the Dutch aren't requiring masks (except under limited circumstances, e.g., on buses):

"Dutch Dr. Fauci Thinks Masks Won't Work. Here's Why":

https://www.newsweek.com/netherlands-mask-policy-1522917

Re: Science and scientific expertise are more important than ever

#132

Post by ken47 » Wed, Aug 05, 2020, 7:41 PM UTC

cuspy wrote: post #55

Given the track record of institutional science and the ever-growing list of regulatory failures, moral failures and outright abuses pushed in the guise of scientific expertise, why do so many people seem to think that simply doubling down and bullying the general population into compliance with expert consensus will ever work? What if institutional science in the US has a legitimacy crisis because it has failed to p…

"STEM training itself has sadly become a hierarchical, cult-like, anti-intellectual system that deprives students of critical thinking skills"

Engineering definitely doesn't deprive students and practitioners of critical thinking. Other disciplines? Maybe. I can't speak to that.

Re: Science and scientific expertise are more important than ever

#133

Post by cuspy » Wed, Aug 05, 2020, 7:42 PM UTC

Consultant32452 wrote: post #100

cuspy wrote: post #55

Given the track record of institutional science and the ever-growing list of regulatory failures, moral failures and outright abuses pushed in the guise of scientific expertise, why do so many people seem to think that simply doubling down and bullying the general population into compliance with expert consensus will ever work? What if institutional science in the US has a legitimacy crisis because it has failed to p…

>legitimacy crisis You've hit the nail on the head here. These past few years I've felt like every major institution has been in a credibility crisis. Government, news, universities, the whole thing is falling apart. One hypothesis I'm starting to believe was coined by Eric Weinstein as the Embedded Growth Obligation (EGO). The basic idea is we had a few historically unique decades post WWII of exponential growth, an…

Yes, I'm familiar with this idea, and I think it really does get close to one of the roots of the problem. I hope more people start listening carefully to individuals like Mr. Weinstein before it's too late to change course.

I don't always agree with everything he says on other issues, but we are lucky to have him in a position where he's afforded the right to speak freely. It's a shameful embarrassment to the state of our public discourse that it takes a billionaire hedge fund backing to secure that right.

Re: Science and scientific expertise are more important than ever

#134

Post by Consultant32452 » Wed, Aug 05, 2020, 7:42 PM UTC

patagurbon wrote: post #130

Consultant32452 wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anything like that has to be balanced against things like: 250k deaths caused by medical errors in the US each year 7-9k people die from medication errors https://mymedicalscore.com/medical-error-statistics/

What number of those would've died without care?

What number of people who got medical care would've lived/recovered without it? My point is not that I know the answer to when medical care became a net benefit, my point is that it's an extremely complicated thing that there doesn't seem to be a clear answer to.

Re: Science and scientific expertise are more important than ever

#135

Post by ken47 » Wed, Aug 05, 2020, 7:43 PM UTC

slg wrote: post #107

cuspy wrote: post #55

Given the track record of institutional science and the ever-growing list of regulatory failures, moral failures and outright abuses pushed in the guise of scientific expertise, why do so many people seem to think that simply doubling down and bullying the general population into compliance with expert consensus will ever work? What if institutional science in the US has a legitimacy crisis because it has failed to p…

>What if institutional science in the US has a legitimacy crisis because it has failed to police its own corruption and failed to address its own limitations and vulnerabilities? What if everyday people can see this more clearly than those striving on the margins of these institutions? You are giving the anti-science crowd a huge benefit of the doubt. I don't think people who believe the Earth is flat or that wearing…

There is no anti-science crowd on hacker news. Among other (presumable) intellectuals, we can discuss such ideas without worrying about "giving the [nonexistent] anti-science crowd" here anything.

Re: Science and scientific expertise are more important than ever

#136

Post by cuspy » Wed, Aug 05, 2020, 7:49 PM UTC

ken47 wrote: post #132

cuspy wrote: post #55

Given the track record of institutional science and the ever-growing list of regulatory failures, moral failures and outright abuses pushed in the guise of scientific expertise, why do so many people seem to think that simply doubling down and bullying the general population into compliance with expert consensus will ever work? What if institutional science in the US has a legitimacy crisis because it has failed to p…

"STEM training itself has sadly become a hierarchical, cult-like, anti-intellectual system that deprives students of critical thinking skills" Engineering definitely doesn't deprive students and practitioners of critical thinking. Other disciplines? Maybe. I can't speak to that.

As someone with an undergraduate degree in engineering and some professional experience as an engineer, I would counter that the training of engineers absolutely does deprioritize the kind of high level critical thinking I'm talking about. I'm not saying every engineer needs to be an ethics and politics scholar, but there is definitely room for improvement.

Nuance in communication and dealing intelligently with ambiguity is also a really big issue in all of STEM. Engineering is no exception. This is in fact something that COULD be improved. It's just not as profitable.

Re: Science and scientific expertise are more important than ever

#137

Post by mistermann » Wed, Aug 05, 2020, 7:51 PM UTC

giardini wrote: post #131

mistermann wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> he knows, but can't communicate what he knows One example of this was when he knowingly misled (as one player in a coordinated effort) the public about the usefulness of the general public wearing masks at the initial outbreak of the pandemic. Now that the truth came out, Trump supporters have indeed latched onto this as proof that what the medical establishment says is not always true. Whether the benefit was wort…

mistermann says> " Now that the truth came out,... " Are you sure of the truth? In recent news, the Dutch aren't requiring masks (except under limited circumstances, e.g., on buses): "Dutch Dr. Fauci Thinks Masks Won't Work. Here's Why": https://www.newsweek.com/netherlands-mask-policy-1522917

> Are you sure of the truth?

Not at all, I am only going by what Dr. Fauci said in those videos - perhaps he is once again saying something that is not actually truthful. Maybe Donald Trump is not the only person in Washington who is skilled in the black art of 4D Chess...I seem to recall one or two items in the past where the public was told, in a coordinated fashion, things that were not true. In fact, this behaviour seems to be a rather common attribute in most any human being I've encountered, in any community.

> Dutch Dr. Fauci Thinks Masks Won't Work. Here's Why

Another interesting behaviour I've noticed is how doctors and the media portray the masks issue as being essentially universal consensus in the medical field.

I often wonder what is really true. I wonder if the experts ever wonder what is really true.

Re: Science and scientific expertise are more important than ever

#138

Post by slg » Wed, Aug 05, 2020, 7:52 PM UTC

cuspy wrote: post #121

slg wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>What if institutional science in the US has a legitimacy crisis because it has failed to police its own corruption and failed to address its own limitations and vulnerabilities? What if everyday people can see this more clearly than those striving on the margins of these institutions? You are giving the anti-science crowd a huge benefit of the doubt. I don't think people who believe the Earth is flat or that wearing…

Maybe I'm being too charitable, but wouldn't it be worse if it turned out that you were holding back progress in the conversation by insisting that ALL of your interlocutors are incapable of thinking critically? We need to be more strategic than vindictive. Why not forget about the notion of a mass "anti-science crowd" and have some basic respect for your fellow citizens as individuals with widely varying levels of e…

I am not suggesting we be vindictive over strategic. I am suggesting that fixing corruption in the scientific community isn't going to solve this problem because the causes of the anti-science movement don't solely originate from within the scientific community.

If my specific examples are too much of a straw man, how about climate change? The US has largely been ignoring the science on that for decades. What is the more likely reason? The scientific consensus on climate change is the result of corruption, the scientific community ignores this corruption, and the general public turns to climate deniers as a result of this corruption. Or is it the most reasonable explanation that there are countless groups that have an invested financial and political interest in downplaying the scientific consensus regarding the issue? It seems obvious this is a situation in which the corruption leading to anti-science viewpoints is an outside force acting on the scientific community and not the other way around.

I also threw in a note about the mask issue in my original comment since I was unclear. To add another note on top, I'm not sure this administration is one I would point to as somehow anti-corruption especially when it comes to their interpretation of science.

Re: Science and scientific expertise are more important than ever

#139

Post by godelski » Wed, Aug 05, 2020, 7:53 PM UTC

cuspy wrote: post #113

baddox wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Personally, as a scientist, I am comforted that there are enough others out there who doubt the entire notion of a scientific establishment that the population should "trust" to make decisions without oversight. I'm not sure what you're actually proposing, but it sounds dangerously close to "pilots have been in control of airplanes for decades, and they've caused so many crashes, so maybe it's time to try people wh…

I'm not proposing anything like that. I said that I'm glad others are becoming more skeptical of the message of relying on trust without oversight. The fact that you read my comment as advocating a total disregard for training and expertise is exactly why we are in this mess. Where is nuance? No, I look at the current situation and conclude that our institutions are failing us. Notice that I didn't say I'd prefer to…

> Where is nuance?

The problem with language is we have to make certain assumptions. It is easy to read your comment in that way. Just as it could be easy to read

> cuspy 15 minutes ago | parent | on: Science and Scientific Expertise Are More Importan...

I'm not proposing anything like that. I said that I'm glad others are becoming more skeptical of the message of relying on trust without oversight. The fact that you read my comment as advocating a total disregard for training and expertise is exactly why we are in this mess. Where is nuance?

No, I look at the current situation and conclude that our institutions are failing us. Notice that I didn't say I'd prefer to be ruled over by elite families rather than a consistent, transparent and democratic government that is accountable for its mistakes. I want government that has a generational stake in the outcome of its policies.

> All I can say in response to you is that without charitable reading of one another's thoughts, we are never going to get anywhere. It will be endless, pointless dispute. Just because something "sounds like" something else in some superficial way, doesn't mean it is.

As promoting anti-vaxers. The reason is because these conspiracy groups mimic the same language (i.e. the anti-authority rhetoric). With so much dog whistling happening it is difficult to correctly interpret. Btw, I don't think that's what you're intending to imply and I didn't take it that way, but it is important to understand how it could be taken that way.

As a scientist, I care about many of the concerns that you are bringing up, but also be mindful that it is difficult to understand because these preconceived notions. It isn't so much that there is a uncharitable reading, but that it is hard to determine what you are meaning. There's "what you mean," "what you say," and "what is heard" and these can all the different things. This is specifically a problem because the division in our culture currently.

Re: Science and scientific expertise are more important than ever

#140

Post by ken47 » Wed, Aug 05, 2020, 7:53 PM UTC

cuspy wrote: post #136

ken47 wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"STEM training itself has sadly become a hierarchical, cult-like, anti-intellectual system that deprives students of critical thinking skills" Engineering definitely doesn't deprive students and practitioners of critical thinking. Other disciplines? Maybe. I can't speak to that.

As someone with an undergraduate degree in engineering and some professional experience as an engineer, I would counter that the training of engineers absolutely does deprioritize the kind of high level critical thinking I'm talking about. I'm not saying every engineer needs to be an ethics and politics scholar, but there is definitely room for improvement. Nuance in communication and dealing intelligently with ambig…

Without concrete examples, I'm going to continue to disagree.