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Data isn't just being collected from your phone, it's being used to score you

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Re: Data isn't just being collected from your phone, it's being used to score you

#131

Post by chordalkeyboard »

dependenttypes wrote: post #90
steffan wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If I put a tracking device in my car today my rates would go up because I accelerate quickly and brake hard when conditions allow. That is not right. If statistically other drivers who do that are more likely to, on average, result in a loss for the insurer, they are right to raise your rates. "Past Performance is no guarantee of future results" With enough data, maybe it would support your assertion that you are,…

> If statistically other drivers who do that are more likely to, on average, result in a loss for the insurer, they are right to raise your rates. This argument could as well be applied regarding certain protected characteristics of the driver (such as race, gender, sexual orientation, etc).

This argument would only be valid if there was a causal relationship between the “protected characteristic” and the increased risk. If the relationship was not causal, then the insurer would be mispricing the risk and thereby leaving profit on the table.

Re: Data isn't just being collected from your phone, it's being used to score you

#132

Post by gruez »

lmkg wrote: post #104
TeMPOraL wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder at which point it becomes a self-fulfilling property - at which point decisions based on data-driven pigeonholing actually lock people on the paths "discovered" in the numbers? E.g. if a young adult gets classified as "disorderly, drunk, unsuitable for reproduction, suitable only for low-skill work" based on their history of college partying, and then consequently denied work and social opportunities (as eve…

Read Weapons of Math Destruction by Cathy O'Neil. The book explores several ways that's already happening. Her main premise is that there's a feedback loop in many data-driven policies. You only get success results for the things that you try, and you only try the things you already think are likely to receive. As a result, algorithmic policies tend to reinforce the status quo. Loan risk algorithms will favor people…

Can't this be solved by randomly giving out the wrong prediction, and seeing how it turns out? eg. for 1% of applicants, pretend to give them 800+ credit score, then check the outcome compared to the "expected" score.

Re: Data isn't just being collected from your phone, it's being used to score you

#133

Post by rapjr9 »

One thing that could end this is someone hacking into the databases and changing scores. Say for all the US senators and a few CEO's and celebrities. It would basically prove that the scores are no longer trustworthy. Not that they are anyway, but if they start affecting "important" lives things might change.

I've been wondering if all this data is being used for stock market manipulation or timing the market. What exactly are those quant's using for inputs?

Re: Data isn't just being collected from your phone, it's being used to score you

#134

Post by syshum »

gruez wrote: post #130
syshum wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> And it’s not even just used for credit anymore, renting an apartment now usually requires a credit check. Renting an apartment is credit, I am not sure why you view it has something other than credit? The owner of the property is loaning (credit) the use of their property to you for X amount of time in exchange for N amount of dollars, payable over monthly installments How is that not credit? A better example is e…

>Renting an apartment is credit, I am not sure why you view it has something other than credit? >The owner of the property is loaning (credit) the use of their property to you for X amount of time in exchange for N amount of dollars, payable over monthly installments Not really. In most places you have to pay first and last month's rent, which means you're paying for the service before it's rendered. Therefore they'r…

Well there are a few problems with this

1. I would like you to define "most places" as for the first 35 years of my life I was a renter and in that time I only ever had to pay "First and last" in one instance. Most of the time it was The first months rent, and security deposit(which was often something small like $100 or $200), no "last months rent" so around here it was not "most places"

2. Even if you use that as a metric that is more like a down payment than a "services paid in advance", unless you are on some kind of month to month with no lease. Every lease I have ever signed shows the TOTAL of all payments which are paid in 12 installments just like a loan, if on month 6th you just move well you still owe the other 6 payments (less any down payment aka last month you prepaid)

The owner is absolutely extending you credit for the use of the property, If you sign a lease for an apartment for $1,500 a month for 12 months you are agreeing to pay $18,000 to the owner for the use of the property, you have both agreed to pay that over 12 equal payments, and in your hypothetical the owner has asked for a $3,000 down payment on that loan in exchange the owner adjusted the terms to 10 equal payments

Re: Data isn't just being collected from your phone, it's being used to score you

#135

Post by chordalkeyboard »

dcewcrrec wrote: post #68
kebman wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember a party that was very interested in facial measurements. They used it to discriminate too. Why should corporations suddenly get away with this now?

We've entered an awkward twilight zone where companies can do what they want a la Laissez-faire capitalism, which means they can also do exactly the same thing a government would do at exactly the same scale and with similar levels of authority. It is a grey area that hasn't yet been stopped by laws because sometimes companies are so big they influence the laws themselves.

Everything you have said except for the last phrase “ sometimes companies are so big they influence the laws themselves“ is false. There are a fantastic amount of regulations in every western country today, many of which are applied arbitrarily or with enough discretion that they are essentially arbitrary. Even the most massive corporations market caps are dwarfed by the monthly spending of government. The only cases where corporations exert the powers if the state over detention and violence are occasions where they do so at the bidding of the state.

It is true that some corporations are so big that they influence lawmakers just as ultra wealthy people always have. Indeed, if corporations were able to do the same things governments did and with the same authority, this process of influencing the government would be unnecessary.

Re: Data isn't just being collected from your phone, it's being used to score you

#136

Post by amelius »

rapjr9 wrote: post #133

One thing that could end this is someone hacking into the databases and changing scores. Say for all the US senators and a few CEO's and celebrities. It would basically prove that the scores are no longer trustworthy. Not that they are anyway, but if they start affecting "important" lives things might change. I've been wondering if all this data is being used for stock market manipulation or timing the market. What e…

> One thing that could end this is someone hacking into the databases and changing scores.

While they're at it, perhaps they can change some US senators' bank balances just for fun.

Re: Data isn't just being collected from your phone, it's being used to score you

#137

Post by bsanr2 »

gruez wrote: post #128
njarboe wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Credit reporting agencies and financial institutions commit fraud all the time. They call it identity theft so that you think it is your fault instead of their fault. No one would care about a bank giving a loan to a person that was impersonating them except for the fact that the bank (credit card, mattress store, car dealership, etc) commits fraud and reports to the credit agency that you have defaulted on your loan…

>Credit reporting agencies and financial institutions commit fraud all the time. They call it identity theft so that you think it is your fault instead of their fault. No one would care about a bank giving a loan to a person that was impersonating them except for the fact that the bank (credit card, mattress store, car dealership, etc) commits fraud and reports to the credit agency that you have defaulted on your loa…

>If some guy walks into a bank and claim they're you and they believe it, the banks aren't gaining anything.

They would have just sold a loan.

>If anything, they lost money.

Can't they sell the defaulted loan to collections?

>Lax security practices are negligence at best.

Systemic, known, and long-standing negligence speaks to intention.

Re: Data isn't just being collected from your phone, it's being used to score you

#138

Post by lotsofpulp »

bsanr2 wrote: post #137
gruez wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Credit reporting agencies and financial institutions commit fraud all the time. They call it identity theft so that you think it is your fault instead of their fault. No one would care about a bank giving a loan to a person that was impersonating them except for the fact that the bank (credit card, mattress store, car dealership, etc) commits fraud and reports to the credit agency that you have defaulted on your loa…

>If some guy walks into a bank and claim they're you and they believe it, the banks aren't gaining anything. They would have just sold a loan. >If anything, they lost money. Can't they sell the defaulted loan to collections? >Lax security practices are negligence at best. Systemic, known, and long-standing negligence speaks to intention.

> Can't they sell the defaulted loan to collections?

Why would anyone pay face value for a defaulted loan?

Re: Data isn't just being collected from your phone, it's being used to score you

#139

Post by bsanr2 »

syshum wrote: post #119
erikerikson wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Glad you're doing what sounds to be healthier. I suspect many think differently here but I don't think the problem lies in the knowledge but in how people with power are currently using the knowledge. Restricting the knowledge is simply or current best mitigation of the current conventions. Another world might use that knowledge to better support you and others who have seen hard times and restore what sounds like a…

The biggest problem today be it credit scoring, Social media Censorship, or anything that is using these vast databases of personal info is the complete lack of transparency Denied a loan, denied a job, kicked off a platform, in none of these situations is the company requires to justify their actions or be transparent in the policies and processes they used to reach that conclusion This black box leaves people feeli…

"Fail fast and opaquely, good luck iterating ya bozo." Good advice, guys, thanks. /s

>So for example if you are denied a home loan, you should be able to request every single scrap of info that loan company collected about you (including any and all credit scores) they used to make that determination

The reason why that doesn't happen is because they're almost certainly discriminating in ways they shouldn't be.

Re: Data isn't just being collected from your phone, it's being used to score you

#140

Post by mindslight »

air7 wrote: post #14
elliekelly wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It very well might be garbage data but if companies are acting on that data it’s still highly problematic. Maybe even worse than if the data were accurate.

The possible silver lining is that companies will quickly realize the data is garbage (which is causing then losses) and stop using it.

That's a pretty strong assumption. Data that is garbage isn't necessarily going to cause losses. In fact, making the market more opaque (less efficient) will add to profit margins. If all companies are using the same data/algorithm, then even incorrect decisions form a focal point. If all the companies think someone is a bad risk, then that person will end up paying more regardless. Even if one company defects and accurately prices their risk, that company will just lower their rate a little and that customer still won't be getting the rate they would have if full market competition were taking place.
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