ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard • Hacker News Board

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#131

Post by jdhawk » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 5:47 PM UTC

tom_ wrote: post #76

I wish people would just copy the MS Natural Ergonomic 4000, but with better keyswitches. As things stand, every split keyboard with nice keyswitches has a different layout from every other, which is odd, considering how much this type of device relies on muscle memory to work. (Also, most of them miss one or more of F keys, symmetrical meta keys, standard navigation cluster layout, volume buttons - it's like they wa…

I transitioned over to the ergo k680, and have really enjoyed it. The only keyboard I've stuck with after the MS4000

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#132

Post by phaus » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 5:50 PM UTC

codemac wrote: post #130

tom_ wrote: post #76

I wish people would just copy the MS Natural Ergonomic 4000, but with better keyswitches. As things stand, every split keyboard with nice keyswitches has a different layout from every other, which is odd, considering how much this type of device relies on muscle memory to work. (Also, most of them miss one or more of F keys, symmetrical meta keys, standard navigation cluster layout, volume buttons - it's like they wa…

As someone who uses an advantage kinesis & dvorak, laptops & dvorak, and other people's computers & qwerty: You get used to switching back and forth in ~2 weeks. If you spend all your day typing, definitely spend the $ and the time to learn to type on an ergonomic keyboard with good quality switches. I think the kinesis or maltron have the best research on their ergonomics & build quality. I highly recommend them.

The Kinesis is based on sound research. The Maltrons have a lot of keys positioned in ways that add nothing to ergonomics.

Maltron also makes the claim that you can type 80 wpm with their 1 handed keyboard but there seems to be no publicly available evidence of anyone getting anywhere near that fast.

I agree its pretty easy to switch back and forth between different split keyboards and to traditional keyboards.

I use an Ergodox-EZ and a Dactyl Manuform on a daily basis for 2 different systems.

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#133

Post by mohaine » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 5:50 PM UTC

thefounder wrote: post #32

Already had somwthing like this. The wires made it useless for me.

I never understood the appeal of wireless keyboards. Sure I understand for mobile but for a primary workspace the wire has never bothered me on the keyboard. I mean it just sits there and replacing batteries is a pain. Mouse is a different story since it moves. Is it just mobile or is there some other reason you hate wires on a keyboard?

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#134

Post by kingnothing » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 5:51 PM UTC

codemac wrote: post #130

tom_ wrote: post #76

I wish people would just copy the MS Natural Ergonomic 4000, but with better keyswitches. As things stand, every split keyboard with nice keyswitches has a different layout from every other, which is odd, considering how much this type of device relies on muscle memory to work. (Also, most of them miss one or more of F keys, symmetrical meta keys, standard navigation cluster layout, volume buttons - it's like they wa…

As someone who uses an advantage kinesis & dvorak, laptops & dvorak, and other people's computers & qwerty: You get used to switching back and forth in ~2 weeks. If you spend all your day typing, definitely spend the $ and the time to learn to type on an ergonomic keyboard with good quality switches. I think the kinesis or maltron have the best research on their ergonomics & build quality. I highly recommend them.

I love my Kinesis Advantage, but there's definitely a learning curve that new users should expect.

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#135

Post by johnm » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 5:53 PM UTC

steveklabnik wrote: post #129

johnm wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, there are people who have already written firmware in Rust for their DIY/kit keyboards. Nothing yet mainstream like QMK. Here's a write up of one of them: https://josh.robsonchase.com/rest-of-the-keyboard/ Meet the Ferris keeb that was just recently developed. Currently built using QMK but will eventually have Rust firmware. https://github.com/pierrechevalier83/ferris

I know some people have, but part of the fun is doing it yourself :) There's also https://github.com/TeXitoi/keyberon

Indeed!

Was just looking at that yesterday.

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#136

Post by mohaine » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 5:56 PM UTC

johnm wrote: post #114

wy35 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I'm disappointed to see that this isn't a contoured keyboard -- still waiting for a contoured keyboard (e.g. Advantage2) with the customization of the ErgoDox without having to build it myself (e.g. Dactyl Manuform).

Do you only use the Advantage at home/work? I.e., what do you do when you're traveling (or just using your laptop away from you desk)?

Not OP but I just just use my Advantage at Home/Work (currently the same thing) and the Mac keyboard if I'm mobile. I tend not to do much heavy coding if I'm not at my desk due to the reduced screen size. If I had one of the newer Macs with the crappy keyboard I'm not sure what I would do. This hasn't been an issue since every work Mac since 2015 has been a the old style keyboard for some reason.

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#137

Post by StavrosK » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 5:57 PM UTC

phaus wrote: post #132

codemac wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who uses an advantage kinesis & dvorak, laptops & dvorak, and other people's computers & qwerty: You get used to switching back and forth in ~2 weeks. If you spend all your day typing, definitely spend the $ and the time to learn to type on an ergonomic keyboard with good quality switches. I think the kinesis or maltron have the best research on their ergonomics & build quality. I highly recommend them.

The Kinesis is based on sound research. The Maltrons have a lot of keys positioned in ways that add nothing to ergonomics. Maltron also makes the claim that you can type 80 wpm with their 1 handed keyboard but there seems to be no publicly available evidence of anyone getting anywhere near that fast. I agree its pretty easy to switch back and forth between different split keyboards and to traditional keyboards. I use…

I use an Ergodox-like keyboard (Centromere v2) and am currently typing on my laptop (normal Dell keyboard). I switch between the two completely effortlessly, without thinking about it.

I can no longer type on my old Das, though, as I haven't used it ever since I got the Centromere. I would not get a wireless keyboard now, it's not very unreliable, but enough to be a slight nuisance for no benefit.

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#138

Post by Tarsul » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 5:57 PM UTC

ahelwer wrote: post #60

tetris11 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have never spent more than 30 € on a keyboard and mouse combo, and that's over the span of the last 10 years... I have never peeked over the price wall into the higher end stuff because it genuinely has never occurred to me that my current keyboard+mouse were hindering my productivity. High contrast screen? Sure, squinting hurts. Office-cancelling headphones? Sure, loud noises ruin my concentration But keyboard and…

The three most impactful things you can do to avoid wrist injuries are: (1) Ensuring your chair, desk, and keyboard are set up so your wrists are straight when typing (2) Using a split/tilted keyboard so your wrists do not need to rotate as much when you type (3) Using a vertical mouse so your wrist does not need to rotate as much when mousing You can accomplish all of this for very cheap. A bit more than you're spen…

I'd add (or even put on top): Work out. There's nothing better than working your muscles to prevent injuries. Even hand grippers help already.

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#139

Post by kingnothing » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 5:58 PM UTC

johnm wrote: post #114

wy35 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I'm disappointed to see that this isn't a contoured keyboard -- still waiting for a contoured keyboard (e.g. Advantage2) with the customization of the ErgoDox without having to build it myself (e.g. Dactyl Manuform).

Do you only use the Advantage at home/work? I.e., what do you do when you're traveling (or just using your laptop away from you desk)?

I also use an Advantage which covers probably 80% of my computer use. I have no problem switching between it and other keyboards. If I'm on my laptop in the living room or away from home, I'll use the built in keyboard. If I'm gaming, I use a Kinesis Gaming keyboard.

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#140

Post by StavrosK » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 6:02 PM UTC

ohazi wrote: post #127

The columnar layout thesis ("your fingers move vertically, not horizontally!") is wrong. Your fingers can move both vertically and horizontally, but moving them vertically requires tensioning and releasing the tendons that travel through the carpal tunnel, while moving them from side to side does not. It's the exact opposite of what you want to be doing if you have wrist RSI. I got partway through an Ergodox build be…

I switched to a columnar layout split QMK keyboard a few months ago. The columnar layout was easily the worst decision, it took me months to learn to be fast on it again, for basically zero benefit. Yes, I was typing "wrong", but who defines what's right when it works fine for me?

I would definitely recommend getting a QMK split keyboard with extra keys, I love mine, but I would advise that people get a staggered one to avoid having to learn to type again from scratch.