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On eve of bankruptcy, US firms shower executives with bonuses

reuters.com

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Re: On eve of bankruptcy, US firms shower executives with bonuses

#131

Post by jolux »

cinquemb wrote: post #119
jolux wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you can't keep everyone on in the first place it's pretty ugly to give the people at the top bonuses, they have less to lose from losing their job in the first place.

And they also have less incentive to stay because these are supposedly people who could provide the same work for other companies in similar situations at the same or higher prices. I find myself in this situation right now: ill stay on at higher prices if the company wants to renew its contract, or i'll leave for another place (I have more people emailing me for work than I have before the pandemic and I'm not on an…

If I'm at a place where people will lose their jobs if I leave the company the answer is simple: I don't leave until that's either not the case or I personally can't afford it anymore.

Re: On eve of bankruptcy, US firms shower executives with bonuses

#132

Post by cinquemb »

jolux wrote: post #131
cinquemb wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And they also have less incentive to stay because these are supposedly people who could provide the same work for other companies in similar situations at the same or higher prices. I find myself in this situation right now: ill stay on at higher prices if the company wants to renew its contract, or i'll leave for another place (I have more people emailing me for work than I have before the pandemic and I'm not on an…

If I'm at a place where people will lose their jobs if I leave the company the answer is simple: I don't leave until that's either not the case or I personally can't afford it anymore.

I owe no loyalties to corporates, I have other interests that I would like to spend time on and pursue more than convincing stakeholders to make decisions that should have been made long ago to have them avoided being put in the position they are now.

If people insist on making choices that will continue to sink the ship, I don't have to go down with it.

Re: On eve of bankruptcy, US firms shower executives with bonuses

#133

Post by jolux »

cinquemb wrote: post #132
jolux wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I'm at a place where people will lose their jobs if I leave the company the answer is simple: I don't leave until that's either not the case or I personally can't afford it anymore.

I owe no loyalties to corporates, I have other interests that I would like to spend time on and pursue more than convincing stakeholders to make decisions that should have been made long ago to have them avoided being put in the position they are now. If people insist on making choices that will continue to sink the ship, I don't have to go down with it.

>If people insist on making choices that will continue to sink the ship, I don't have to go down with it.

I think this calculus flips around when your commitment has entered a stage where other peoples' livelihoods depend on it, basically. That's all. Get out before it springs a leak in an org like that, is my advice.

Re: On eve of bankruptcy, US firms shower executives with bonuses

#134

Post by lend000 »

Apocryphon wrote: post #127
lend000 wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a long thread here now that addresses all your questions, rebuttals, and subsequent rebuttals. But fundamentally, you need to realize that if something is happening in a statistically significant way (like it is here with dozens of companies doing the same thing at the same time), there is likely an explanation in structural incentives.

Structural incentives can be immoral. Remember subprime MBSes?

This exact point is addressed: see thread.

Re: On eve of bankruptcy, US firms shower executives with bonuses

#135

Post by WalterBright »

mostlyghostly wrote: post #106
II2II wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no denying that it takes skill and hard work to keep a business afloat in these times, or that it is stressful, or that it is easier to walk away than deal with the situation. On the other hand, very few businesses are the product of a small subset of its people. In many businesses, such as some of the businesses mentioned in this article, it isn't a question of whether those other people can afford to send…

"very few businesses are the product of a small subset of its people" Hate to break it to you but that is EXACTLY what is going on here. Some people have EXPONENTIALLY more impact on saving a business than everyone else in the building. Real world examples: - Two sales people who knew every high profit customer in our local market, which was the core of our turnaround plan - My product engineer, with "the specs in he…

> Some people have EXPONENTIALLY more impact on saving a business than everyone else in the building.

This is true in every organization.

The canonical example is Steve Jobs.

Re: On eve of bankruptcy, US firms shower executives with bonuses

#136

Post by mostlyghostly »

jolux wrote: post #129
mostlyghostly wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not everyone is equal in that analysis. And in a financially constrained endgame, you have to make choices about who to keep and cut. Cutting that senior sales executive will cost 20 other jobs due to lost business and downstream implications. Cutting the factory worker costs zero other jobs. The harsh reality is not everyone matters equally. [and to be clear, I'm not talking about bullshit deals just because someone…

All I'm saying is that it's bad if you cut those people and use it to give your execs a golden parachute instead of more runway for the people left over.

In that event, most of the people in question will accept an offer from a competitor with greater assurances of financial security and return to loot and pillage what's left of the business on behalf of their new sponsors.

If you're lucky, they merely poach the stuff you cannot defend anymore. In most situations, they come after the crown jewels of the business, accounts which create the lions share of the revenue and profits which funds the business.

And then you're screwed. Shut it down, pink slips for everyone...

Re: On eve of bankruptcy, US firms shower executives with bonuses

#138

Post by cinquemb »

jolux wrote: post #133
cinquemb wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I owe no loyalties to corporates, I have other interests that I would like to spend time on and pursue more than convincing stakeholders to make decisions that should have been made long ago to have them avoided being put in the position they are now. If people insist on making choices that will continue to sink the ship, I don't have to go down with it.

>If people insist on making choices that will continue to sink the ship, I don't have to go down with it. I think this calculus flips around when your commitment has entered a stage where other peoples' livelihoods depend on it, basically. That's all. Get out before it springs a leak in an org like that, is my advice.

> I think this calculus flips around when your commitment has entered a stage where other peoples' livelihoods depend on it, basically.

For you, not for others.

> Get out before it springs a leak in an org like that, is my advice.

I'll be fine for a long time even if the company goes under, others may not though, I've seen it happen way too many times to not be prepared for stuff like this. And I can just accept an offer from another place rather than outright reject them.

Re: On eve of bankruptcy, US firms shower executives with bonuses

#139

Post by jolux »

mostlyghostly wrote: post #136
jolux wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All I'm saying is that it's bad if you cut those people and use it to give your execs a golden parachute instead of more runway for the people left over.

In that event, most of the people in question will accept an offer from a competitor with greater assurances of financial security and return to loot and pillage what's left of the business on behalf of their new sponsors. If you're lucky, they merely poach the stuff you cannot defend anymore. In most situations, they come after the crown jewels of the business, accounts which create the lions share of the revenue an…

Well, that makes them assholes. I'm not in favor of giving bonuses to unethical assholes.

Re: On eve of bankruptcy, US firms shower executives with bonuses

#140

Post by jolux »

cinquemb wrote: post #138
jolux wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If people insist on making choices that will continue to sink the ship, I don't have to go down with it. I think this calculus flips around when your commitment has entered a stage where other peoples' livelihoods depend on it, basically. That's all. Get out before it springs a leak in an org like that, is my advice.

> I think this calculus flips around when your commitment has entered a stage where other peoples' livelihoods depend on it, basically. For you, not for others. > Get out before it springs a leak in an org like that, is my advice. I'll be fine for a long time even if the company goes under, others may not though, I've seen it happen way too many times to not be prepared for stuff like this. And I can just accept an o…

>For you, not for others.

So I see.

>I'll be fine for a long time even if the company goes under, others may not though, I've seen it happen way too many times to not be prepared for stuff like this.

Yeah, and it's their problem up until the point at which the situation is unrecoverable without you, and even then it's still mostly theirs, but I would have a lot of hangups about acting in a situation like that.

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