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ICE changes exemptions for foreign students taking online courses in Fall 2020

ice.gov

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Re: ICE changes exemptions for foreign students taking online courses in Fall 2020

#131

Post by bdhe »

eiji wrote: post #122
aaomidi wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Think about this in a way an accountable official would think. No they wouldn't. I've held various (small scale) public facing offices before and this isn't how I would think. Thinking of the consequences of your actions is a very important thing. > If you make an exemption for people who are currently already in the country, what would that solve? Decrease the damage done? > So you have to craft such a "heavy hand…

You are not addressing any of my points with any substance. But you have to resort to cursing twice.

The reason the other commentator thinks your post is bullshit because it doesn't address the clause in the order that requires F-1 students currently already in the country to leave if classes are online-only. This order is not done by some agency being thoughtful about covid19, it's about using the pandemic to put out more xenophobia that the WH will more than approve.

Re: ICE changes exemptions for foreign students taking online courses in Fall 2020

#132

Post by sukilot »

usaar333 wrote: post #114
mynameisvlad wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not the same thing at all. There's always been a flight a week from the US to China, so even if it takes a while, it's still possible. Especially so with at least a month's notice.

In the long run, we're all dead. Or perhaps just cured of covid. There's ~375k Chinese students in the US. At one flight a week, it would take over 20 years for all to return home (to be fair, there's actually 4 flights a week I believe -- so merely 5 years). This is a de-facto blocking of citizens from returning. And no, you can't just "wait" a month. As a sibling commenter noted, the best they could find were Octob…

Does that mean that students on invalidated visas will get a free government flight home, or that they won't be deported?

Re: ICE changes exemptions for foreign students taking online courses in Fall 2020

#133

Post by sukilot »

copperx wrote: post #116
p49k wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is scalping airline tickets actually something that happens? I’d assume no since you have to provide the name of the passenger when reserving.

I've changed the name in the ticket after the fact and it hasn't been a problem. They do it for national security purposes, not to prevent scalping.

That's very rare on low priced tickets. Are low priced tickets a national security threat?

Re: ICE changes exemptions for foreign students taking online courses in Fall 2020

#134

Post by sukilot »

tmoney9999 wrote: post #119
akiselev wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I highly doubt that's what will happen. How many of these programs are dependent on foreign tuition? These aren't efficient institutions, mind you, so a downturn could lead to collapse of the weakest ones, leading to increase domestic competition at the remaining ones.

My comment was only considering graduate students, whom I think, are the group most affected by this change. Graduate students in STEM usually don't pay tuition--their lab pays the fees for them to be enrolled.

International Graduate students, even in STEM, are mostly Masters candidates paying extremely high fees.

https://cgsnet.org/master%E2%80%99s-or-doctorate-internation...

Re: ICE changes exemptions for foreign students taking online courses in Fall 2020

#135

Post by sukilot »

smnrchrds wrote: post #91
cm2187 wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not going to defend the Iranian regime or military services in general, which I think is a waste of time for all parties. But is it the role of the US immigration regime to circumvent military duties in foreign countries?

My point was that there are likely hundreds of edge cases that ICE did not think about (or care about) when they decided to change the rules. When you create rules carelessly, people fall through the cracks. ICE has now created a massive crack many will likely fall through. Military service is just one of such cracks, there are likely many many more. Just imagine how many people are likely to lose their scholarships…

Why would someone lose a scholarship for attending their online-only school?

Re: ICE changes exemptions for foreign students taking online courses in Fall 2020

#136

Post by sukilot »

copperx wrote: post #117
pandaman wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have the rules been changed though? These on-line education restrictions (known as "Full course of study") had been in the law for a while, see 8 CFR 214.2(f)(6)(G) [1]. What ICE has done is a temporary suspension of enforcement. Now they just resume normal operation. You could argue they had to suspend it for longer but accusing them of changing rules seems bizarre as what you actually want is for them to change rul…

That is true. But the difference is that students used to have a choice (online vs in person classes), and now most don't. To be honest, there is no purpose for most students to be in the US if they're taking online classes. But there are a lot of edge cases (e.g., students doing research in the lab, graduate students with a research stipend, students in economical hardship with a part time job, etc.) I wonder whethe…

Classes are the smallest part of college.

Re: ICE changes exemptions for foreign students taking online courses in Fall 2020

#137

Post by sukilot »

Shank wrote: post #22
paulgb wrote: post #8

As some have pointed out elsewhere, the idea that "they can just do the courses remotely from their home country" has some issues: - live classes may happen in the middle of the night - tools like GSuite are blocked in China - internet connection quality varies Given the amount of revenue foreign students bring in, this seems like the admin is using access to those students as a lever to force schools to reopen prema…

There's also the sad reality that for many students, it's not possible to work unimpeded on school work at home. For many, university is the a psychological retreat from home circumstances that are distracting at best the best of times and downright abusive at the worst. It doesn't matter if your Internet is solid if you can't actually focus on the work.

Nothing is stopping students from living in their own apartments for online school.

Re: ICE changes exemptions for foreign students taking online courses in Fall 2020

#138

Post by sukilot »

esalman wrote: post #127
cm2187 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plain old xenophobia? How about double digit unemployment rate? We can debate the means. But I can understand why Trump would want to cut down on immigration. Now a good question is whether there will be unemployment among highly educated people with STEM degrees, who were in hot demand only a few weeks ago, and if not this is counterproductive. But every economic indicator seems to point at a major recession (beyond…

You may not know this, but graduate research assistants make less than what many Americans get in unemployment benefits. You are basically getting cutting-edge research work done by non-immigrants for that money. Do you think it is more beneficial for your country to pay a US citizen for doing nothing? I am a GRA and I work on translational research in neuroimaging and data science. With my career prospects dwindling…

Unemployment payments are temporary, not 4 years.

Re: ICE changes exemptions for foreign students taking online courses in Fall 2020

#139

Post by yorwba »

p49k wrote: post #111
yorwba wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A month is not enough if all the tickets have been snatched by scalpers and you can't afford the markup they ask for.

Is scalping airline tickets actually something that happens? I’d assume no since you have to provide the name of the passenger when reserving.

Yes.

https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/fpdKM1iJBr0as6osJ2e0Tw

李慧早就决定回国，但是她两次订到的“便宜机票”，航班都被取消了。现在，她已经订不到低于4万元价格的机票了，有可能订到的机票，价格几乎都在“6万出头”。当然，这些机票都在一些黄牛手里，她身边不少想回国的中国留学生，都是通过黄牛高价订票。

Li Hui decided to return home long ago, but the "cheap tickets" she had booked twice had their flights cancelled. Now, she can't find any ticket with a price of less than 40,000 yuan. The tickets she might be able to book are almost all from 60,000 upwards. Of course, these tickets are in the hands of some scalpers. Many Chinese students around her who want to return to China are booking high-price tickets through scalpers.

Re: ICE changes exemptions for foreign students taking online courses in Fall 2020

#140

Post by sukilot »

zaroth wrote: post #30

I don’t understand how universities think they can get away with charging full tuition to students while offering online only classes. I would be so furious if I was stuck in this situation of trying to graduate on time but being scammed out of the whole experience I worked so hard to get in to. If the schools feel so strongly against reopening they should waive their tuition for anyone already enrolled to attend onl…

Tuition is a consensual transaction. Students can withdraw if they don't like what the school is offering. How is it unjust to sell something people want? Remember, tuition is for the diploma. The education is already available online for free, or for much cheaper at a local community college, in almost every case.
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