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Tell candidates what to expect from your job interviews

jvns.ca

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Re: Tell candidates what to expect from your job interviews

#131

All of that sounds like you’re just going to favor people who are slacking at their current work, unemployed or have a ton of free time outside of work to prepare. How is that “leveling the playing field”? Obviously if you’re google or whatever your process is going to leak anyway so better to tell candidate upfront what to expect (and they do). If you’re smaller/unknown co may as well get genuine reaction rather tha…

I disagree. I've interviewed an abnormal amount: roughly every 8 months since getting my first job, and for more than one job at a time.[0] Based on my experience, the best interviews have been the ones with the most detail shared up-front. When I say best, I don't just mean my own performance has been best, but I also feel that the interviewer has been most satisfied and that they have learned what they meant to lea…

> All this said, I do not like interview processes that have large homework requirements.

Wish I could just outright refuse those but between 4 months of looking for a job (I was looking in a rather niche zone) plus the pandemic draining my savings 5-7 months before they were supposed to run out, I really had to work a lot for free...

Lessons learned, and I completely agree with your post.

Re: Tell candidates what to expect from your job interviews

#132
post #35
post #10

Perhaps a bit of an unpopular opinion but as far as interviews go, I think that seeing how someone reacts unprepared is a lot more valuable then seeing their work with them knowing what to expect. You see their ability to adapt and improvise, which is far more valuable then being picky about a particular library or technology. Yes, the quality of their tests will be lower, but that's fine and you can take that into a…

> Perhaps a bit of an unpopular opinion but as far as interviews go, I think that seeing how someone reacts unprepared is a lot more valuable then seeing their work with them knowing what to expect. You see their ability to adapt and improvise, which is far more valuable then being picky about a particular library or technology. I agree that you want to see someone thinking on their feet and tackling a new problem. B…

> I've heard people say this, but i don't see why it would be true. Is there reasoning behind this, or does it just feel smart?

I recently got told by the VP of Engineering of the company I am now undergoing onboarding with, that if a senior programmer asks no questions about how the company['s teams] work and doesn't have any requirements, that to him sends the message they are desperate and don't know their value.

Other people told me that not asking anything means that the interviewee is not proactive.

Re: Tell candidates what to expect from your job interviews

#133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I conduct interviews with candidates almost every other day. Believe me, interviewing is a huge cost for the company and nobody wants to organize interview to "fish" for the candidates. We have screening process to remove candidates that don't have chance passing next stage so that we can spend more time with candidates that pass screening. It is really difficult to figure out if you want to work with somebody after…

I can't find a single point of disagreement with you. :) The problem with these HN discussions is that they attract the good apples from both sides while the bad apples won't ever read and correct their practices by participating in these threads. We kind of put ourselves in a rather positive filter bubble here and that can skew our reality a bit. I wish I've met more interviewers like you during my nightmarish 4 mon…

I feel like chiming in because the way the parent described things makes me sad about the state of interviewing and I personally would be very turned off by this kind of interview.

I'm actually a little shocked that this person whose job it is to interview and hire people seems to say that all these basic things like setting up for the interview, reading over the person's resume, and so on are /chores/. I mean, maybe they're not the most fun things I agree, but the approach seems way off, as if they're just trying to get it over with and check the boxes. Then they talk about defusing stressful situations multiple times, why? I get the feeling that they're creating a stressful environment for both sides.

Then the coding while watching part. That sounds just awful, I'm sorry. While this is part of your job within normal hours, the candidate is likely taking time off or doing it after hours (unless they're unemployed, but still). I don't know how you're actually "giving hints", but this just sounds really uptight and stressful. I'd wager you're really taking people out of their environment and setting them up for failure by doing this. Why is it a problem that they google the answer to your question? That doesn't strike me as wrong at all. Sounds like a good developer and I could see this going into a very healthy discussion about how they'd solve problems perhaps that weren't so obvious from googling.

I don't mean anything against the parent. Just adding my $0.02.

Re: Tell candidates what to expect from your job interviews

#134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't find a single point of disagreement with you. :) The problem with these HN discussions is that they attract the good apples from both sides while the bad apples won't ever read and correct their practices by participating in these threads. We kind of put ourselves in a rather positive filter bubble here and that can skew our reality a bit. I wish I've met more interviewers like you during my nightmarish 4 mon…

I feel like chiming in because the way the parent described things makes me sad about the state of interviewing and I personally would be very turned off by this kind of interview. I'm actually a little shocked that this person whose job it is to interview and hire people seems to say that all these basic things like setting up for the interview, reading over the person's resume, and so on are /chores/. I mean, maybe…

I did not say it is a chore. I wouldn't be doing interviews if I didn't like it.

I just said it is difficult to do all of these well within 2h limit. This was to contrast with other people balking at longer interviews.

Also, if I ask the candidate a question or give a coding problem to solve I expect them to be intelligent enough to understand I don't want them to google the solution. Everybody knows what the interview is and what it is for.

If I wanted them to google the solution I would ask to perform the task at home EXCEPT I find giving the task to be done in own time unfair and unethical practice.

It is unethical because by spending no effort at all I am motivating potential candidates to spend huge amount of their own time to polish the solution as much as possible.

It is unfair because it does not let me to get to know the candidate at all. It promotes candidates who are willing to waste huge amount of their time.

Re: Tell candidates what to expect from your job interviews

#135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I 100% agree. I used to be in the boat of "I shouldn't have to study to pass a job interview" when I was younger. Now that I'm older and I've interviewed a lot of people too, I realize sometimes life is un-fun and kinda sucks but you gotta do what you gotta do. There's a strong co-relation between people who spend two hours a night for three months studying algorithm questions and people who are willing to spend 8 ho…

This is all true, I just wish people didn't put that much weight on some pretty random and oddly specific tech interview questions. I've practically [re-]invented Redis back in 2008 while working for a company, and wrote something very akin to the Google crawler bot in 2009 yet at some point 2 months ago I "fail" an interview because I didn't do the best possible optimization of a basic stock storage system that has…

pdimitar I totally feel you. For full context: I have never passed a leetcode style phone screen in my entire life. Even after studying for 6 weeks, every night for 2 hours and buying a couple of courses on how to pass coding interviews.

I've gotten my last few jobs and oppertunities by following co-workers from job to job. AKA doing good work and building good relationships with the people I worked with. I've been able to leverage these relationships to skip the phone screen at some of the big tech companies but still freeze up on the the white board interviews unfortunately in real life.

At the end of the day though I know what I have to do: Either study for 3 more months, stay where I'm at with my current pay, or switch careers entirely. Right now I'm leaning towards switching careers entirely.

At the end of the day though, if you've never worked with a person before, and your company doesn't do a good job firing people who aren't performing, I'm not sure of a better way to screen people in 45 minutes :(. And this is coming from the guy who's screened out himself.

There's _plenty_ of engineers out there. We're not special.

Re: Tell candidates what to expect from your job interviews

#136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. I've interviewed an abnormal amount: roughly every 8 months since getting my first job, and for more than one job at a time.[0] Based on my experience, the best interviews have been the ones with the most detail shared up-front. When I say best, I don't just mean my own performance has been best, but I also feel that the interviewer has been most satisfied and that they have learned what they meant to lea…

I don’t really understand how few hours of prep work can correct for crappy interviewer. Also not talking about few hours - people spend months grinding leetcode and if you don’t you’ll be at disadvantage

Below are two examples of recent preparatory information given to me before interviews with two different companies. These are samples. I did not spend a few hours on each of these examples, but a few hours in total for each company. I probably spent Example 1:

"This interview is for your cultural fit. The interviewer will ask a series of 'tell me about a time when' questions. The core values of the company are x, y, and z."

So I spent a few hours reviewing those core values, and making sure I had anecdotes to cover each that represent me and my experience well. I rehearsed these answers, and made sure that I could articulate how my answer aligned with a specific value. I didn't have to flail around on the spot with no understanding of what the interview would be about. I didn't waste time in my answers talking about technical details that aren't relevant to an interview that is focused on personality and experiences outside of the technical.

If I did not know what the point of the interview was, I could easily respond to, "Tell me about a time you had a disagreement with a teammate and how you resolved it," by focusing on a technical challenge, and giving background on the technical details. If the interviewer weren't too good, or was just having an off day, they might not press to get details about the soft skills involved in solving disagreements that was really the point. This could easily become a failed interview question where they consider me obtuse and focused on the technical details at the expense of interpersonal ones.

With expectations firmly set and my own prep to make sure I had that story and that focus locked and loaded, I can make sure to focus on how I made sure all parties were heard, and that how I helped to foster a productive conversation, and how I made sure that I could back my side up with facts and figures, and how we had a reasoned discussion, and how we made a good decision in the end.

Then the interviewer doesn't have to keep digging when I gave an answer all about technical domain challenges. Then I don't have to feel defensive because the interviewer is digging. So we both have a better time in the interview. And I avoid being marked as "do not hire" for answering the question wrong without knowing.

Example 2:

"This interview is a high level technical interview, focusing more on systems architecture than code. You will be expected to whiteboard but not write code. Our interviewers will have several scenarios to choose from that focus on the following topics: a, b, and c."

So, I looked at that company's product offerings (this was for a customer-facing engineer role), in order that I might be conversant in their technologies. I looked for any whitepapers or blog posts about the topics, and made sure I was familiar with the architectural challenges of the topics provided. I made sure I understood how their products could fit together in a larger architecture, or where integration with third party systems was viable. These are not topic areas unfamiliar to me, so I'm not embarking on a full curriculum to understand these, but focusing my time on the topics I know will be covered.

I didn't waste time grinding leetcode, or even reviewing anything algorithmic for this interview.

When the interviewer presents a scenario, I don't waste time in answers that include fine technical details, such as how to configure the various services involved, or how one might program a solution to the scenario presented. I know I'm expected to whiteboard, so I make sure to illustrate as I am talking.

Again, my prep makes sure I'm on topic, so I don't depend on my interviewer guiding me to the right level of answer. A poor interviewer might let me go on for a long time, so that we can't finish in time. I would blow my chance by spending too much time in the weeds to get through everything they wanted to.

Even if I have a good interviewer who gets me back on track, if I've focused on grinding leetcode for this interview, I don't have systems architecture on my mind. I'm flailing around trying to refocus. Even if I get back on track, I'll have a much poorer showing than if I answer the questions appropriately (note, appropriate correct) to start with.

Separately from the examples given, there is another question of how well the interview topics fit the job. I am opposed to algorithmically-focused coding interviews for positions where it is not expected that the person in the role will have to implement algorithms as part of their day-to-day responsibilities. That said, if you are applying for a role where deep algorithmic experience is required as part of the day-to-day, then I would expect any decent candidates to not need to grind leetcode. If you're already doing this stuff regularly, then it should be a matter of brushing up, rather than grinding.

Re: Tell candidates what to expect from your job interviews

#137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is all true, I just wish people didn't put that much weight on some pretty random and oddly specific tech interview questions. I've practically [re-]invented Redis back in 2008 while working for a company, and wrote something very akin to the Google crawler bot in 2009 yet at some point 2 months ago I "fail" an interview because I didn't do the best possible optimization of a basic stock storage system that has…

pdimitar I totally feel you. For full context: I have never passed a leetcode style phone screen in my entire life. Even after studying for 6 weeks, every night for 2 hours and buying a couple of courses on how to pass coding interviews. I've gotten my last few jobs and oppertunities by following co-workers from job to job. AKA doing good work and building good relationships with the people I worked with. I've been a…

> At the end of the day though I know what I have to do: Either study for 3 more months, stay where I'm at with my current pay, or switch careers entirely. Right now I'm leaning towards switching careers entirely.

One person who wrote a Python book was spot on in their conclusion: "At one point you should stop working as a programmer. You'll get no respect and your pay will be mercilessly negotiated down. Better to start another business and utilize programming as a secret weapon."

(Grossly inaccurate rephrasing but that was the gist of the paragraph.)

Still though, maybe you are too shy for the brutal game of numbers and chance that job hunting is even for seasoned programmers. That's fine. But you should know -- there are a ton of really mature and interesting people out there who know how to recruit. But it's a fact of life that you rarely find them; more often than not, they find you. And that's not happening to everyone who needs such an approach (sadly).

If you feel you want to switch careers and can't bear the thought of working programming anymore then do it. But if you just kind of feel giving up because of bad interviews -- don't give up just yet.

And I absolutely agree: we like to think we're special but there are a lot of very talented people out there. Very few are actually standing above the crowd. I am fine being one of many though; we each bring our own flavour to the company and some of these flavours do bring serious competitive advantages. :)

Re: Tell candidates what to expect from your job interviews

#138
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is strongly misaligned with many companies' incentives so it will never happen, I am afraid. A lot of interviewing processes are kind of like fishing. They hope that if they wasted you 6-10 hours of your time before an actual offer then you'd make a decision based on the sunk cost fallacy ("not sure how much time the other companies will waste me, let's take this one on their offer, it's not so bad"). I am glad…

>They hope that if they wasted you 6-10 hours of your time before an actual offer then you'd make a decision based on the sunk cost fallacy You might be overthinking this. I doubt many companies really have this viewpoint for the simple fact that falling for this is a trait of a bad employee. You don't want to actively select your employees based on their flawed decision making process.

Technically, company is not a single mind that could have a viewpoint on something. It is a group of people, who sometimes have different incentives. Maybe someone's incentives make this a good strategy, even if it is harmful for the company as a whole in long term.

I don't know how exactly people in HR are rewarded, but I have noticed a few situations where the company had a generous salary range in mind, but HR fought against mentioning it. It didn't make sense from the company perspective, because the company wanted the people, and the salary was above market average so the potential candidates would have liked it too. The resistence of HR makes me suspect that their incentives didn't align with the company interest, but I have no idea how specifically.

Re: Tell candidates what to expect from your job interviews

#139
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Afaik, research suggests that interviewers know after 20 seconds whether they'll hire someone. I don't have references and don't know if this would translate well to tech interviewing, but I'd wager that the vast majority of a 7h interview day is totally pointless.

This has definitely not been my experience when I do tech interviewing. Lots of people can talk the talk...

I believe it was more of subconscious thing, but again, just throwing it in. Might have been SciShow that remarked on it.

Re: Tell candidates what to expect from your job interviews

#140
post #84
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It takes at least 30 minutes to get enough code out of the candidate to form even a first impression. Yeah, gonna stop you there. It takes less than 30 seconds to get a first impression. That's the whole point of first impressions. As soon as you see a person, you have a first impression. I've talked to many interviewers - they all agree that they basically have an impression formed within the first few minutes and…

Grandop said > research suggests that interviewers know after 20 seconds whether they'll hire someone. That’s not first impression, that’s a meaningful ability to see if I hire someone. I can tell you that without seeing code/discussing some previous experience there is zero chance I can form hiring decision for most reasonable candidate (the only 30 second hiring impression I can form is perhaps a negative one).

I meant to be less specific than "hire someone", but I'd wager that once a subconscious impression is formed, you'd be more likely to bias your interpretation of whatever else they say.
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