Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017) • Hacker News Board

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#131

Post by dragonwriter » Mon, Jun 29, 2020, 2:26 PM UTC

chosenbreed37 wrote: post #128

cs702 wrote: post #51

There's one other possible, additional reason. I recently asked a 17-year-old high school senior who is heading to college what she's planning to study, and she said it would be mathematics, biomedical engineering, or some other kind of engineering. She's self-motivated -- says she will be studying multi-variate calculus, PDEs, and abstract algebra on her own this summer. She maxed out her high school math curriculum…

> I recently asked a 17-year-old high school senior who is heading to college what she's planning to study, and she said it would be mathematics, biomedical engineering, or some other kind of engineering. I find this interesting. In this day and age I get the impression that whichever STEM field one goes into there will be considerable time spent in front of a computer screen. Whether researching, writing programs, r…

> In this day and age I get the impression that whichever STEM field one goes into there will be considerable time spent in front of a computer screen

That was true in the 1990s, too.

And wasn't only true of STEM.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#132

Post by offset1 » Mon, Jun 29, 2020, 2:27 PM UTC

exdsq wrote: post #100

boomlinde wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also, Civil Engineers do learn physics as part of their course. The analogy is apt for exactly that reason. Some knowledge in physics is fundamentally required, but for the civil engineer it's only professionally relevant to the extent that they can apply it to solve practical problems. A solid understanding of physics (and indeed how to come out wiser after reading a paper relevant to your field) is just one part…

What would you learn in a BSc Software Engineering that's not in a BSc Computer Science course that's not going to become redundant after a couple years and couldn't be covered in a module? I have thought about this before and argued for Software Engineering to be a specific course/field, but it's just too ephemeral at the moment with a lack of 'core' elements to warrant a 3 year course. Edit: To be clear, I want the…

Some software engineering studies, even sometimes called information technology (Australia, Netherlands, Germany) are theoretically equivalent to most of the general CS studies you find in the United States. It all depends on the curriculum at the end of the day.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#133

Post by chasd00 » Mon, Jun 29, 2020, 2:27 PM UTC

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #81

NalNezumi wrote: post #48

I've always seen the same pattern in College decision: self-projection. That is, a combination of what they know and what they think they can do/like . Most people choosing Uni choose from what they know. Majority of young people know little about anything CS or nerdy; They often know the end product (computers, phones, apps) but very little about the people working on it. Compare that to doctors, managers, Wallstree…

CS types in the movies are basically magicians. Something needs to happen, they open a laptop, they type away furiously, there's a cutaway which shows them frowning, then a red dialog box on the screen turns green, and the thing happens. It's hard to get from that to the reality developing CRUD apps. There may be some drama, but arguments about which framework to use are not usually very cinematic.

"It's hard to get from that to the reality developing CRUD apps."

on a tangent, this is especially bad for Architects. When I was in college I fell in with an Architecture clique, I went to all their parties and made life long friends even though I was majoring in CS and they were all Architecture majors.

They were told from day one that unless they're the next Frank Lloyd Wright (or some other world renowned architect), they're a complete failure and an embarrassment to the art. Then they graduate, get certified, and end up copy/pasting facades on Discount Tire construction plans or something else like that. It's a very bitter pill to swallow.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#134

Post by peruvian » Mon, Jun 29, 2020, 2:29 PM UTC

christiansakai wrote: post #79

cs702 wrote: post #51

There's one other possible, additional reason. I recently asked a 17-year-old high school senior who is heading to college what she's planning to study, and she said it would be mathematics, biomedical engineering, or some other kind of engineering. She's self-motivated -- says she will be studying multi-variate calculus, PDEs, and abstract algebra on her own this summer. She maxed out her high school math curriculum…

I don't understand where did this perspective come from? Is it from movies? I've been in this field for 6 years now, and I never encountered the stereotypical nerd in this field whatsoever. Not during my CS course not during my career.

It's a half-true stereotype. I work with people who basically do almost nothing but code or talk about code... and they're in their late 20s and 30s. I've been on dates with software engineers who bring tech stuff to the conversation a little too often for my tastes as well.

Young teens are more obsessive about hobbies so if you're really into computers at that age, that's all you do.

In the real world though, for every person like that, there's ~10 who either don't think about code after 5pm or aren't nearly as obsessive. But it's definitely a thing in our industry!

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#135

Post by jbob2000 » Mon, Jun 29, 2020, 2:29 PM UTC

hhhhhhhjjjjjjju wrote: post #115

jbob2000 wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think it’s just that, I think it’s also the perception that computer science = programming. And programming isn’t a career, it’s a job you do for a decade or two before you get too old or move on to management. And if you’re planning on management anyways, why not start with a degree for that?

I've been "programming" for almost 20 years. I'm 39 -- I'm completely self-taught (as in no bootcamps or any other formal education related to CS) and have never had an issue finding employment. I can easily switch between about 6 programming languages, multiple scripting languages, run systems and bang out algorithms. I have lead teams and have also worked as a contractor for several years. At what point will I face…

At 39, you are right at that tipping point where job offers mysteriously start drying up. I'm not speaking from first hand experience, I've only been doing this for 10 years since graduating, but this is what I regularly hear from older programmers.

That's not to say that it isn't possible to survive past 40 as a programmer, my point was just that this is a deterrence for getting a Computer Science degree. Think about any other profession; doctor, lawyer, engineer; the perception of these professions is that they get better with age. Computer Science is totally opposite, it's a field dominated by young hotshots who spun the wheel'o'algorithms and got lucky.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#136

Post by MisterTea » Mon, Jun 29, 2020, 2:29 PM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #4

I don't think CS is a high social status field at all . You're deluding yourselves. Outside of our peers also in the industry nobody cares that you're a staff engineer at Google. Absolutely nobody. They'll assume you're doing IT work like the characters in the IT Crowd if they even bother to think about it at all and haven't already walked away. Here's a concrete example to make it really obvious. How many computer s…

> Outside of our peers also in the industry nobody cares that you're a staff engineer at Google.

Nonsense. I was talking to my office furniture dealer tenant about a fellow hacker. This man doesn't know a computer from an air conditioner. After I said "he previously worked for Google and Facebook" his face lit up and replied with something like "Wow, he must be good then." Never underestimate the layman.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#137

Post by Dumblydorr » Mon, Jun 29, 2020, 2:31 PM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #4

I don't think CS is a high social status field at all . You're deluding yourselves. Outside of our peers also in the industry nobody cares that you're a staff engineer at Google. Absolutely nobody. They'll assume you're doing IT work like the characters in the IT Crowd if they even bother to think about it at all and haven't already walked away. Here's a concrete example to make it really obvious. How many computer s…

It's not zero status because most people understand IT work makes good money, and in this capitalist society money means better access and privileges. So, I do think people making 300k a year in SV have a great status.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#138

Post by ghaff » Mon, Jun 29, 2020, 2:32 PM UTC

radford-neal wrote: post #126

ghaff wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That pretty much lays out one of the more standard explanations for why more women don't go into CS. Things arguably changed in the early 80s with the rise of PCs and gaming. While programming certainly existed before that, it wasn't something that most kids were exposed to in high school and CS curricula in general were heavily theory oriented and often in the Math department. Today, if you want to be a mechanical e…

Could this actually be good, or at least quite understandable? (I'm not actually sure whether you intend your comment to just be descriptive, or also judgemental.) Does anyone expect college music programs to be easily accessible to people who didn't play an instrument, or sing in a choir, during high school? Similarly for dance, and drama, and art. And if you're right that mechanical engineering schools no longer ex…

It's a bit of both. For the most part, we encourage students to explore new interests and even set themselves onto a completely different track in college. And, for the most part, STEM majors assume nothing beyond interest, aptitude(?), and standard HS coursework.

At the same time, I agree that programming (if not necessarily CS) has a sufficiently low barrier to entry these days that some exposure prior to settling on a CS degree seems like a reasonable expectation, especially at more elite schools.

ADDED:

>And if you're right that mechanical engineering schools no longer expect students to have been tinkering around in their spare time previously, is that actually good?

Certainly when I went to school, there was no expectation of any real prior exposure to STEM in hobby form or otherwise outside of high school courseware.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#139

Post by Dumblydorr » Mon, Jun 29, 2020, 2:33 PM UTC

I love STEM, but I went towards biology because my high school had a fantastic biology program that showed me how fascinating life is. It wasn't until I needed to analyze data on biology experiments that I coded. There was literally zero coding or Linux or explanation of computers at middle school or high school, in Providence RI, FWIW, around 2000-2010.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#140

Post by peruvian » Mon, Jun 29, 2020, 2:34 PM UTC

battertenr wrote: post #47

The reason is because it is a terrible job. Unlikely 90% of other jobs, you have to mentally burn your brain out each day, constantly learn new things, and focus intensely, supposedly for 8 hours. The reward is nothing, not even good pay outside of a couple of tech giants in the USA. If you compare it to a trade, there is a night and day difference to your mental health. The wage data in this article is meaningless b…

IDK about this take in the context of the workplace. My experience has been that non-engineering office workers work the same amount of hours or even more for almost half the salary we get... in the same expensive cities.

I'll still take software engineering over being a lawyer (3 grueling years of $40k/yr tuition and 12+ hour days) or doctor (a decade of expensive school) even if they make more money.

Trades are cool and underrated... but they also ruin your body and also aren't as high paying as people think (at the beginning it might be close to minimum wage).