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Dwarf Fortress Creator Explains Its Complexity and Origins [video]

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Re: Dwarf Fortress Creator Explains Its Complexity and Origins [video]

#131

Post by Supermancho »

opportune wrote: post #62

I have been playing dwarf fortress for about 7-8 years. If anybody has any questions feel free to ask me. I think the difficulty of learning the game is overstated: if you follow a tutorial, use a graphics pack, and use dwarf therapist (dwarf therapist is a must, most experienced players also use this because it's just a better UI) I think you can get the hang of the game in a few hours of play time. Probably the big…

I appreciate his effort (having played for decades), but that aside...the difficulty is knowing what's wrong and why something is happening.

The horrid military UI is inherent to the game. Bugs that are left for months (if not years) like the inability for seiges to enter your site (hiding just offscreen, slowly killing your CPU) or the current persistent bad memories, often makes aspects of the game unplayable WITHOUT the complexity and issues with mods that are necessary. Yes you can play the game in ASCII or with chopsticks or blindfolded with someone barking at what you need to do, but complexity and difficulty is not commensurate with fun or depth. DF is not the only game to fall into this trap.

DF has depth outside of the UI/setup/bugs, but onboarding is what Tarn is addressing (partly) in the Steam release. Good.

I think the difficulty of learning the game is on point.

Re: Dwarf Fortress Creator Explains Its Complexity and Origins [video]

#132

Post by keeganpoppen »

distances wrote: post #94
kagbor wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So I have to install 2 third-party tools and follow 2+ third-party tutorials/guides for a few hours before I can potentially start enjoying the game. Doesn't sound overstated at all...

There are lots of games with some learning curve. When starting with Crusader Kings II, I spent more time reading the game wiki than actually playing the game.

hell, reading the wiki is half the fun!

Re: Dwarf Fortress Creator Explains Its Complexity and Origins [video]

#133

Post by Moru »

csunbird wrote: post #85
opportune wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, once you get accustomed to the tilesets for a bit it becomes trivial to switch to ascii. But I think it's nice to learn using the tileset because it's usually pretty clear what something is.

I think the joke went flying over your head. Edit: It is a Matrix reference, where Neo asks Tank if he can understand what is going on by just looking at the green characters whizzing in the screen. He answers "You get used to it after a while. ... For example, I see blondes, brunettes, redheads ... " Edit 2: I guess I remembered it wrong, it was Cypher!

Except for anyone playing Hack or Dwarf Fortress or any other ascii based game it's not a joke, it's reality.

Re: Dwarf Fortress Creator Explains Its Complexity and Origins [video]

#134

Post by hinkley »

INTPenis wrote: post #77

I love DF. I played it for so many years that I knew all the bindings I needed by heart. It was insane. But I left it alone many years ago, like 6 years ago at least. And after that I feel like you can get the same joy from simpler games, and prettier games, like Rimworld and Oxygen not included. Sure they'll never be as complex and deep as DF but they're much simpler to get into after not having played and they don'…

I tried to get into DF by watching some of the better play through videos. It was fun but in the end it just inspired me to pick up Oxygen Not Included again.

Re: Dwarf Fortress Creator Explains Its Complexity and Origins [video]

#135

Post by pdrummond »

dgritsko wrote: post #125
snide wrote: post #34

Nice to see NoClip getting some love on HN. I'm an unabashed Danny O'Dwyer fan and I think this community would enjoy all of NoClip's work if this is your first taste. His docs cover quite a few behind the scenes stories that I feel all us startup / programmer folks can relate to. His work captures the heart of what it means to be a creator. My dream is that one day he makes a doc about the community around Vim. It'l…

NoClip is fantastic; I also really enjoyed the Rocket League[1] and Half-Life[2] documentaries. Danny just seems like a genuinely nice guy who just loves to tell the stories behind these games, it's awesome to see the success he's had with NoClip. [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Om0j9SLBDPQ [2]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQLEW1c-69c

The NoClip Spelunky[1] documentary is also particularly good.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jv434Xyybqc

Re: Dwarf Fortress Creator Explains Its Complexity and Origins [video]

#136

Post by rhn_mk1 »

imtringued wrote: post #90
rhn_mk1 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't (a large part of) DF basically a huge cellular automaton? That problem is already solved for multiple threads.

Just because something uses a grid doesn't mean it's a cellular automaton. You can probably write DF as a cellular automaton but that's probably not what happened. If dwarfs have x,y coordinates that mark their position and the coordinates are changed when they move then it would not be a cellular automaton. A cellular automaton would take a cell and look at surrounding cells to see if there is a dwarf that wants to…

I think individual dwarves could still be modeled as cells, if there was an additional layer (or a single cell?) holding their future actions.

The automaton would lose the nice property of being spatially isomorphic to the screen, and the possible states would explode, but if my understanding is correct, it could still be a cellular automaton.

Re: Dwarf Fortress Creator Explains Its Complexity and Origins [video]

#137

Post by MintelIE »

X6S1x6Okd1st wrote: post #66
MintelIE wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CDDA is gradually evolving into more of a Dwarf Fortress than a Roguelike as time goes on.

Could you elaborate?

Digging, destruction, building, crafting, all are becoming as much the focus as slaying zomboids

Re: Dwarf Fortress Creator Explains Its Complexity and Origins [video]

#138

Post by austhrow743 »

genocidicbunny wrote: post #58
andrewzah wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Animal Valley Do you mean Animal Crossing? Stardew Valley drew inspiration from Animal Crossing and Harvest Moon.

Sounds like Animal Crossing and Stardew Valley wires got crossed.

Yep. Was meaning to reference Animal Crossing specifically here.

Re: Dwarf Fortress Creator Explains Its Complexity and Origins [video]

#139

Post by jcrites »

Dwarf Fortress sessions have been fun, but Oxygen Not Included provides a lot of the same type of satisfaction (unfortunately with no combat aspect, but much more complicated designing and building of systems) with great graphics and great UX. It's 40% off on Steam right now:

https://store.steampowered.com/app/457140/Oxygen_Not_Include...

The simulation is highly detailed, but in a different way than DF: liquids, gases, creatures in the environment, and networks of machines that you build to produce food and oxygen, recycle various elements, manage germs, and generally keep your base alive. ONI is made by Klei Entertainment, an experienced team, which is primarily known for the game series called Don't Starve. It was in early access for a while and launched in July 2019. They've been adding more content periodically for free since then.

I've enjoyed games of DF, but I'd find it hard to come back to after having played games like Oxygen Not Included, Prison Architect, Rimworld, Frostpunk, Banished, and so on. I'm looking forward to seeing what they come up with for the Steam release, though, and maybe be willing to give it another try.

Factorio is absolutely amazing, but that's an entirely different kind of game.

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