Live data from Hacker News

Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

nytimes.com

131–140 of 339 posts

Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#131
post #76

Slightly tangential question, but I have seen at least one proposal [1] for "malpractice insurance" for cops. The claim is that this would shift expenses for bad policing settlements from taxpayers to bad actors -- a bad cop attracts suits, creates settlements, pays higher premiums, and perhaps eventually stops being a cop. It has some kind of economic logic, but to the best of my knowledge this has never been implem…

> this would shift expenses for bad policing settlements from taxpayers to bad actors Why wouldn't the taxpayers be expected to pick up the cost in the form of increased pay? Better: police unions indemnifying their employers against convictions.

From the article:

One objection is that police are already doing a difficult and dangerous job for relatively low pay, and it would be unfair to saddle them with the additional cost of insuring themselves.

No problem. We can take that pot of taxpayer money currently being used to pay damage awards for misbehaving cops — $308 million in payouts last year divided by 34,000 uniformed NYPD officers equals nearly $10,000 per cop — and use it to give them an insurance allowance.

When very‐ high‐ risk officers see premiums go up, they would have to pay the difference out of their own pockets. That’s fair

Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#132
post #96
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well I don't know who's going to be at the grocery store, so I better strap on my grenades. You can't be too careful.

Grocery stores are public places, homes are not. Homes can be located in gang territory. Police ambushes do happen. I'm not saying they get it right 100% of the time, but serving warrants and bike patrol have way different risks. It's also entirely possible the warrant was unjustifiably a high risk warrant. In that case, SWAT could serve the warrant, and you get this situation. But that's not SWAT's fault.

This is the exact mindset that created the police state: There might be gang members, so rolling up in an armored vehicle makes sense.

Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#133

I would like them to provide and require body cams for all officers at the federal level and require all deaths and injuries occurring in police custody to be reviewed by the FBI/justice dept.

I would like them to provide and require body cams for all officers But we had police shooting at reporters on live TV already. It's not that documented misconduct didn't exist. What's missing is savage consequences for misconduct.

I only take minor exception to them shooting at the press with pepper balls and things like that. Should it happen? Generally no, but you have look at it from the other side. These are large and violent riots and it’s very easy for people to pretend to be the press. It’s not practical to stop and validate press credentials under the circumstances. It sucks, but I don’t have a huge problem with it.

In terms of consequences that is why I believe there should be review at the state or federal level. The only way you can do that review at scale is with body cam footage. Most cases will be open and shut, but just the idea of being recorded AND being scrutinized by a higher authority would make a huge difference in behavior.

Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should the police get a discount? They should have to buy their MRAPs through the auction systems the same way that someone running a logging company has to buy surplus LMTVs. I'm sympathetic to the cause of saving money but if the military won't auction something to a random US citizen I don't see why they should be auctioning that thing to a random US civilian police force. They can sell that stuff to other nat…

> I'm sympathetic to the cause of saving money but if the military won't auction something to a random US citizen I don't see why they should be auctioning that thing to a random US civilian police force. I don't see why it's not clear there's a difference here, in terms of community interest, but whatever > A civilian police force should have no special rights above any other civilian entity. What a weird way of loo…

That’s absolutely not the point of the police. Any power granted to the police is granted by the people they are changed with protecting. The police are not our overlords, they are our servants.

Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#135

The equipment issue isn't going to solve anything, this is just lip service to the real problem. Police Unions have effectively created a system by which officers are nearly immune from prosecution and even if successfully prosecuted their record cannot travel with them in many cases. Now one fix that removing some of the equipment will do will reduce the amount of psychological impact it has on those wielding it, as…

https://twitter.com/samswey/status/1180655701271732224

Per part 4 in the thread above, more military-style equipment appears to lead to a significant increase in police violence.

It's also worth reading for the rest of what does (and doesn't) work.

Link to full study on militarization and police violence: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/20531680177128...

Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#136
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm sympathetic to the cause of saving money but if the military won't auction something to a random US citizen I don't see why they should be auctioning that thing to a random US civilian police force. I don't see why it's not clear there's a difference here, in terms of community interest, but whatever > A civilian police force should have no special rights above any other civilian entity. What a weird way of loo…

Police power is not intrinsic. It is granted by the people through their elected government. In my state, every local authority has the power to designate entities to exercise their various powers. By tradition these are police or sheriff departments but there's nothing preventing the local government from vesting police powers in the 4-H club or Wal-mart.

“License, registration and club card please.”

Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoting your source: "Dressed in riot gear, deputies from the Alameda County Sheriff's Office arrived at the house on Magnolia Street around 5:30 a.m." That confirms what jeffbee said. (Except the "old" part. If 34 is old, I'm in trouble.)

Sheriff deputies can be on SWAT teams

Sure they can. jeffbee was still correct. And no matter what other hats they might wear, it's inappropriate to show up like this when there's no reason to anticipate any violence.

Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#138
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you engender an idea of a UK/Canada-type cop in a country where there are more guns than people? I assume cops here are trained to see all citizens as armed threats, which systematically produces cops who are always on edge and ready to kill. The whole thing feels like a deeper problem than just training cops to be nicer.

Being a cop is actually a very safe job. I'd bet that your chance of being shot as a cashier at subway is higher than as a cop.

Here's a list of occupations that are more dangerous than police officer. https://cms.qz.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/the_deadliest_...

Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#139
post #106
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment breaks the site guidelines against calling names in arguments ("whataboutism"). Please don't do that. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...

Didn’t know, sorry about that.

Appreciated!

Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#140
post #96
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well I don't know who's going to be at the grocery store, so I better strap on my grenades. You can't be too careful.

Grocery stores are public places, homes are not. Homes can be located in gang territory. Police ambushes do happen. I'm not saying they get it right 100% of the time, but serving warrants and bike patrol have way different risks. It's also entirely possible the warrant was unjustifiably a high risk warrant. In that case, SWAT could serve the warrant, and you get this situation. But that's not SWAT's fault.

That would be (partially) SWAT's fault. I don't expect police officers (SWAT or not) to be automatons who blindly follow orders. They need to stand behind their actions. They shouldn't serve a warrant like that unless they believe it to be a high-risk situation.
Post reply on HN