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How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

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Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#131

Post by newbie789 »

devalgo wrote: post #106
newbie789 wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think perhaps you're putting uneven amounts of weight on violence depending on who is participating in it. My understanding of the protests is that it (at least partially) is currently serving as a response to the accepted police's monopoly on violence. I see in another of your posts you said something to the effect of "If (protests) become violent, don't be surprised when (the police) respond with violence." This…

>I see in another of your posts you said something to the effect of "If (protests) become violent, don't be surprised when (the police) respond with violence." You must have me confused with someone else. I've never made a comment like that.

Oops, I did get you mixed up, my mistake. I don't think I can edit my post now, but my point largely still stands as a response to this comment that you did make > ...isn't it clear that your approach has failed?

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#132

Post by eanzenberg »

vzidex wrote: post #89
marcosdumay wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do not use violence in a democratic protest. To use it is effective acknowledgement that you either want to destroy the democracy or do not believe that it actually exists on the moment.

>do not believe that it actually exists on the moment Precisely. People have been voting and non-violently protesting for decades, and it hasn't worked.

How has it not worked?

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#133

Post by hkai »

I like this post because it avoids making provocative claims that are sometimes seen in the media, and I hope that this restores some of the lost trust between the people on two sides.

For example, unlike the media, Obama avoids saying that violence is partially justified, or claiming that some groups have a higher chance of being killed by police, and instead talks about the "recurrent problem of racial bias in our criminal justice system".

Indeed, people on the center and center right sometimes use the FBI crime stats to argue that there is no racial bias in police killings: since African Americans make up 27% of the arrests while constituting 13% of the population, it is consistent with the fact that they are twice as likely to get killed by police.

Much fewer people, however, would argue that there is no bias in the criminal justice system, given the evidence.

So I am hopeful that by making more moderate arguments, Democrats will be able to squeeze perhaps the extra 1-2% which is all is indeed to defeat Trump.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#134

Post by AlexandrB »

Avicebron wrote: post #85
austincheney wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Voting and democracy should not become a device to placate the dissatisfied masses into silence, make them lineup for ballot, to choose a lesser evil who, in most likelihood, will turn out to be a egotistical power-seeker. What else should you expect when people are limited to only two political parties? It could be worse with only one political party.

I'm not sure we just need more political parties, yes it would be nice. But we really need to work on disentangling how deep economic anti-humanist incentives and policy have embedded themselves within both parties.

But with a 2-party system, how do you do that? As a Canadian, I've seen disaffected factions of our major parties splinter off and create viable alternatives. Often they don't get elected, but they attract enough votes to make the mainstream left/right party take notice and move in their direction.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#135

Post by twic »

ImprobableTruth wrote: post #93
slyslacker wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Significantly expanding police training, and greater coverage of topics such as nonviolent de-escalation, community outreach, implicit bias training, and how to work with mentally ill individuals. Greater accountability through body cam programs, and community oversight boards for police departments everywhere. De-militarization of police, because right now, the police can legally buy surplus military gear and use it…

I'm generally on board with everything you've said, but >like to see most beat cops completely disarmed seems absolutely crazy to me as long as the general public has such easy access to guns.

The British model - and i know we have a much lower level of gun ownership than the US, but hear me out! - is to have bobbies on the beat not be armed, but to have rapid response units available which are very heavily armed indeed [1] [2]. So, if police on the street encounter an armed criminal, they fall back, radio for support, and wait for a group of colleagues with assault rifles, sub-machine guns, and proper training in using them, to arrive.

I wonder if a similar model, with different details, could work in the US? In the limit, that could involve police cars or foot patrols working in pairs, one unarmed and doing the actual policing, and another one following some way behind, but not getting involved unless a gun was spotted. Put body cameras on the unarmed unit, with the armed officers watching a live feed, so they don't even have to wait for a call.

That said, as the wikipedia article points out, the British model does not extend to the whole of the UK - police in Northern Ireland routinely carry guns, which in 2020 is rather depressing.

[1] https://www.eliteukforces.info/police/CO19/weapons/

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_police_firearms_in_the...

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#136

Post by [deleted] »

frogpelt wrote: post #44

I agree with almost everything Mr. Obama wrote. But... I feel the complete opposite of “hopeful” when I see these riots, when I see people so angry they will destroy their own cities. Because it accomplishes the exact opposite of they hope it will accomplish: 1. Those who side with heavy-handed police tactics feel vindicated for their prejudices. 2. The communities of those who feel unheard and left out are torn down…

[deleted]

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#137

Post by hkai »

clairity wrote: post #129

> "So the bottom line is this: if we want to bring about real change, then the choice isn’t between protest and politics. We have to do both . We have to mobilize to raise awareness, and we have to organize and cast our ballots to make sure that we elect candidates who will act on reform." obama spends the first 7 paragraphs explaining the ideals of government and the vulgarity of violence, and somehow ends up on thi…

> police kill members of their community at random.

I understand your emotion, but saying that the police walks in the street killing random black people is also unproductive.

You can imagine folks on the right showcasing your post as an example of the "loony left", then starting a discussion about the fact that more whites are killed by police, and so on.

Each time that happens, you lose a tiny bit of support, and that hurts what Obama thinks is important - the election outcome.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#138

Post by 0x8BADF00D »

frockington1 wrote: post #119
frogpelt wrote: post #44

I agree with almost everything Mr. Obama wrote. But... I feel the complete opposite of “hopeful” when I see these riots, when I see people so angry they will destroy their own cities. Because it accomplishes the exact opposite of they hope it will accomplish: 1. Those who side with heavy-handed police tactics feel vindicated for their prejudices. 2. The communities of those who feel unheard and left out are torn down…

And it will be even harder for the communities hurt by this to come back. When you burn down stores in the neighborhood, its very likely the services and taxes they provide are not coming back

It’s a vicious cycle. The rioters and looters pillage their own communities. This causes productive locals to flee, as it is now a safety issue and most of them were impacted financially by COVID-19 so they do not have the means to rebuild. Eventually all that’s left is rubble.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#139

Post by lliamander »

mmastrac wrote: post #76
devalgo wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The MLK quote is trotted out pretty often, but "a riot is the language of the unheard". Trotted out by ignorant woke dummies. In his 1967 Stanford speech MLK also says: "Let me say as I've always said and I will always continue to say, that riots are socially destructive and self-defeating. I'm still convinced that nonviolence is the most potent weapon available to oppressed people in their struggle for freedom and…

You cherry-picked just the MLK quote and added an ad-hominem which isn't a very productive argument.

Calling someone names is not an ad-hominem. Making accusations about a person's character can be a valid inference based on their behavior. What makes an ad-hominem is thinking that a person's character (or other attributes) has any bearing on the correctness of their argument.

For example:

"X is a bad person, therefore their argument is invalid" is an ad-hominem. Bad people can still make valid arguments.

"X's argument is both invalid and in bad faith, therefore they are a bad person" is a logical inference.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#140

Post by FriendlyNormie »

mmastrac wrote: post #22
RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #15

> So let’s not excuse violence, or rationalize it, or participate in it. Taboos around violence for political are one of the crucial building blocks for a functioning democracy. If those taboos are broken, even for a good cause, you set a precedence that violence works. And the next cause won’t be as good. One only has to look at the lessons of the Roman Revolution that started with the murder of Grachus, and ended w…

I cannot condone violence nor encourage it, but you have to admit that the first few protests and property damage drastically influenced the quick arrest of an officer that may not have been arrested or even fired if it didn't happen. The non-violent protests of Colin Kaepernick were mocked and used to rally the other side and just weren't effective. The problem here is not the violence, but a policing system that is…

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