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Do I need to go to university?

colah.github.io

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Re: Do I need to go to university?

#131
post #37

The anti-university sentiment on HN is absolutely alien to me. Not only did I get a lot out of my university education, but it was a totally transformative experience for me. It also enables me to do my job, and I’ve never seen anyone without a good education do it well. Yes, I get that you can be a react developer without a university qualification. This may come as news to some, but most fields bear no resemblance…

From my perspective, somebody who has not attended university but still learned everything they need to do a dev job well has demonstrated something really important:the ability/motivation to learn new academic things in their own free time. So many people seem to completely stop learning once they leave university. I work in HFT, where things are constantly changing and people need to be at the top of their game to stay competitive, so the ability and willingness to keep learning new things is vital for success, as the majority of what makes a quant-dev successful will be stuff they learned on their own/on the job, not stuff they learned in uni.

In this sense the biggest value of a degree in hiring is just the crude proxy it is for IQ and conscientiousness. That being said, I've never interviewed anyone without a degree, but then I've never seen a candidate without a degree either. I have hired people whose degree is completely unrelated to the role, because they demonstrated the ability and interest to learn something outside of what they studied at uni.

So perhaps part of the opposition to university is due to the (possibly incorrect) feeling that it encourages people to think of it as "this is the period I do my learning", whereas some alternative to university might better promote people to develop a habit of lifelong learning. I.e. maybe people have been jaded by the experience of interviewing/hiring people with degrees from good universities who just spend all their spare time consuming media.

Which is not to suggest attending university is a bad idea, given its value as a signal, just that it doesn't seem ideal for developing the habit of lifelong learning.

Re: Do I need to go to university?

#132
For me, a lot of the value in university was the experience of living independent, being thrown into a relatively unknown place with new responsibilities, and figuring out how to cope with it all. I would say that was far more valuable than the coursework itself. I went to undergrad at the typical age (18) and had the opportunity to solely focus on that. I think a lot of this question depends on your age and what you want to do. Adults going back to college won’t get this experience, and if you can self-study enough to prove you have what it takes, there are definitely diminishing returns in going to university.

Re: Do I need to go to university?

#133
I personally don't really give too much weight to education credentials when I'm screening resumes. However, I'd recommend that everyone looking to be a developer go to university:

A) it's a great time to get a broad education, learn from experts in many fields

B) it will most likely affect your compensation throughout your life. Yes, you can find jobs without it. But if you limit yourself to jobs that don't care about a college degree, you will find your options limited. I may not care, but I know that the CEO of my company does, and that will likely affect your bonus and/or salary.

Yes, there are some people whose technical skills are so good that it's obvious to the world. But most people don't fall in that bucket. Whether it's true or not, a college degree will make people _think_ you are better.

Re: Do I need to go to university?

#134
post #37

The anti-university sentiment on HN is absolutely alien to me. Not only did I get a lot out of my university education, but it was a totally transformative experience for me. It also enables me to do my job, and I’ve never seen anyone without a good education do it well. Yes, I get that you can be a react developer without a university qualification. This may come as news to some, but most fields bear no resemblance…

Yes, as a Canadian attending Canadian university the most important learnings happened outside of the program stream and in many cases outside of the classroom altogether.

We were required to take a breadth of courses first year that helped create a well rounded foundation to my studies in software which I value greatly.

I can tell many people in the field have never looked past the technicals to think about how computer science connects to the world at large and it's a shame because there is a lot to learn and much wisdom to be gained by taking a holistic view.

Some of my favorite courses were sociology, anthropology, chemistry, physics, biology (I did switch majors) not to mention classics and astronomy.. They gave me a very rich insight into the philosophy of thought outside of software and I've always applied my learnings to corporacy and professionalism.

Not all universities are like this and graduates while technically proficient graduate wholly unprepared for the realities of social programming because let's face it software is a social medium in the truest sense of the word and university work with its emphasis on solo work i.e. individual performance and occasional groups (which are invariably one person pulling all the others' weight or someone bossing everyone until they give in) as well as emphasizing marks as the primary metric serves very little utility in preparing people for the real world and even co-op programs serve only to reinforce the stereotypes rather than disrupt them.

Re: Do I need to go to university?

#135
I tell all my younger friends to go to varsity and to take as many theory heavy courses as possible.

Obviously, YMMV, but I find absorbing any theory-heavy knowledge alongside my day job extremely hard, whereas I can very easily more practical skills as a I work.

Re: Do I need to go to university?

#136
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And I suspect that both of you got technical degrees and work in technical fields. You are almost by definition an edge case.

Are technical fields really an edge case? I suspect going to a university is helpful in most STEM related fields. In anything medical or law related you don't even have to think about getting a job without a degree. I don't see how anyone can compensate an economical or business study by doing project on their own. If anything I think IT is an outlier, because not going to university and learning the subjects you wou…

I was commenting to the argument that college teaches nothing useful.

Law and medicine are the poster child for credentialism, you are forced by law to complete the degree to work, even if most law and medical professionals will tell you, work has nothing to do with college.

They suffer the “driving license problem”, having the title says nothing about your competence.

For instance, pretty much everyone has to study trigonometry, but very little people actually need to know trigonometry to do their job. In that sense technical fields are an outlier, because knowing trigonometry actually matters to your career.

Re: Do I need to go to university?

#137
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And I suspect that both of you got technical degrees and work in technical fields. You are almost by definition an edge case.

Not at HN, where this is discussed, and also not considering that the article being discussed is hosted on a github page.

An outlier in terms of the people who go to college

Re: Do I need to go to university?

#138
post #110
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also want to point out: I'm seriously going to college just for the name + network. I can easily learn everything at home via MIT open courseware or the syllabus many Stanford courses put online nowadays.

Be sure to get the 4.0 GPA too - it's very nice to have for surprisingly long. Absolutely don't "challenge yourself". You can do that when you're not being graded on it.

I think this very much depends on where you're going. I did not have a stellar GPA in school, but I did take the most challenging courses available to me and it's paid dividends for years. I still work on projects where my college exposure allows me to have a deeper understanding. Working with customers operating at scale, my (in retrospect, amazing) exposure to HPC and distributed computing has been so valuable.

But these were the most challenging courses at a top 5 CS school, with some of the brightest researchers alive teaching course material. At another school that calculus is probably closer to what you're saying.

Re: Do I need to go to university?

#139
I went to university. I did not receive any job training at university. It is not design for job training and I did not expect to receive job training.

I am not a job. I am not a career.

I learned two important things at university that I doubt I could have picked up otherwise.

1. I learned how broad knowledge is. I learned about things I did not even know I did not know about. Some of these things I learned in classrooms. Most I learned outside of classrooms, either through interaction with my peers or by accident while researching something unrelated in the library. Sometimes by hacking on the school computers. In high school I learned that being smart is bad. In university I learned there are people who value thinking.

2. I learned how to organize my time to complete tasks I had no personal interest in, how to force myself to work despite my dislike of team mates or organizers, and to finish by deadlines. I only wish I had learned these things before my 6th and 7th years in university, but alas.

You don't need to go to university. We will always need garbage collectors and street sweepers, and remember, anyone can write bad software. Vendors continue to try to make it easier to do so.

Re: Do I need to go to university?

#140
post #37

The anti-university sentiment on HN is absolutely alien to me. Not only did I get a lot out of my university education, but it was a totally transformative experience for me. It also enables me to do my job, and I’ve never seen anyone without a good education do it well. Yes, I get that you can be a react developer without a university qualification. This may come as news to some, but most fields bear no resemblance…

I inherently believe that this is a U.S.-centric thing as a few commenters mentioned. Specifically a degree in the U.S. is held as a way to advance your career prospects first and it's value is often marketed as a trade off of get X dollars in debt but make Y dollars more in your career on average. So a lot of that attitude becomes I am taking this class to check boxes to get a piece of paper which says I'm worth more in the job market. I am a graduate student but understand the jadedness, especially because I had to retake virtually the same class multiple times because it wasn't "as rigorous" for this specific major as I changed majors a few times (and had to get one of those approved for a different major). But because a lot of people see it as a way for getting a better monetary outcome college in the U.S. is often treated more like a vocational school I feel so the extra "B.S." one has to go through feels like a particular waste of resources.

I enjoyed college but, I very quickly understood that its only purpose wasn't to enhance my education as I sat through multiple classes that were nearly identical to previous all because I had to check a box. And generally I felt classes moved to slow and would have been much happier studying on my own, but courses often forced my attendance. Though I am a bit unique in my ability on that admittedly.

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