I think it comes down to communism. According to Marx's book "The Machine" the end game of communism is essentially an omnibenevolent AI. Marx thought eventually all forms of labor would be mechanised into a colossal machine that would run the world. Thus, the whole point of education is to train the geniuses in math, science, and technology in order to bring about this machine god. That's, in my opinion, why there is such a huge emphasis on those subjects in the Soviet system. All the other subjects are full of questions and speculation, and in general seem useless from that perspective once you believe you've reduced the aspirations of the humanities' longing for justice and truth to an engineering problem to solve.
Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)
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Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)
#132I mean, could it be as simple as "Learning math is more important to Russians than to Americans?" And before you dismiss this as simplistic, consider everything that's competing for attention with "learning math." What things are Americans either preoccupied with or beset with, that Russians esp. Soviet Russians, weren't? I'm thinking, the profit motive. Particularly as concerns textbook publishers. And parents who n…
Russia had brilliant mathematicians even before the October revolution, however, the Soviet Union gave another incentive to become an academic - it pretty much guaranteed a highly respected job, even if the salary was modest, but also allowed most of the academics to not get involved in politics. So in a country where you couldn't form a business, being an academic or a doctor was pretty much the best career choice.
At least the engineers were too useful to the state to get purged frequently.
Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)
#133Here is an interesting paper [1](PDF) by a Russian mathematician who has taught mathematics in Russia, USA and Brazil. He compares the "very successful usage of word problems in Russia and contradictory, inefficient and often immature treatment of word problems in USA." [1] http://toomandre.com/travel/sweden05/WP-SWEDEN-NEW.pdf
Wow, this is a great read! I'm on page 18 so far. It's been discussing how "word problems" are key to developing critical thinking skills, and how far behind the US seems to be in them. One point made: the idea that word problems can wait till algebra, which gives a universal method for solution, totally misses that they develop logic skills and practice with problem solving, which makes learning algebra so much easier.
Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)
#134I stand by my answer[0] to that question. [0]: https://qr.ae/pNrgmY
Can you share some examples backing your claims? For both US, and Russian books.
Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)
#135Disclaimer: I graduated from one of the top math high schools in Moscow in early 90s, I have MS in Math from Moscow State University, and a half finished PhD from the same place. I think on average the difference between a high school student from Russia and US is negligible. Either country doesn’t really require much to finish school and many kids just do the tests without understanding what is going on. What separa…
Curious, what do you and your peers that were feed into a well defined path so early make of it now understanding that is not how all children reach advanced skills in mathematics?
I liked to read and found (and understood) my farther’s calculus books while in elementary school ;) I was honestly bored in math classes through elementary and middle school. Teachers preferred to ignore me and especially my questions. I got through some math competitions with average success, then got invite to a qualification testing into a couple math high schools. Was selected in the last round of testing to the one I liked the most, and then graduated at the top of my year ;)
Edit: btw, I don’t know how I actually got these invites. Either from math competitions, or through my math teachers who found a way to get rid of me ;)
Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)
#136Here is an interesting paper [1](PDF) by a Russian mathematician who has taught mathematics in Russia, USA and Brazil. He compares the "very successful usage of word problems in Russia and contradictory, inefficient and often immature treatment of word problems in USA." [1] http://toomandre.com/travel/sweden05/WP-SWEDEN-NEW.pdf
Huh. That doesn't really match my American experience at all.
True, in elementary school I don't recall any word problems -- because everything was practical arithmetic through sixth grade. I think sixth grade was long division?
But seventh grade was algebra, and all the Russian examples of word problems look like the stuff we got all the time, seventh grade through eleventh grade. Twelfth grade was calculus, and I seem to recall word problems mostly disappearing then, since everything was just graphs and derivatives and integrals.
Granted I was in honors classes and also did extra-credit "Mathcounts" and "Mathletics" after school, where we definitely got more of that stuff too. But that was just a difference of difficulty and, well, even more practice.
Now obviously different countries have different math standards and different cultural attitudes towards the value of math.
But the difference the author is describing doesn't resonate at all with what I learned growing up in a small town in upstate New York.
Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)
#137Disclaimer: I graduated from one of the top math high schools in Moscow in early 90s, I have MS in Math from Moscow State University, and a half finished PhD from the same place. I think on average the difference between a high school student from Russia and US is negligible. Either country doesn’t really require much to finish school and many kids just do the tests without understanding what is going on. What separa…
Such a program will never happen in America again because some people will complain about privilege-this and equity-that. America is basically living Vonnegut’s Harrison Bergeron already and dooming itself to mediocrity if is doesn’t realize the damage being done and correct things.
What happened with NYC’s gifted and talented programs was a perfect example of this idiocy.
Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)
#138I was comparing my math books (from Soviet university, Physics and Applied Math) and my son's from Canadian university (CS). Huge difference to be honest. Canadian ones (same as in US I think) were more like belletristic texts written with the goal to give basics without too much thought needed by the reader. In contrast you cannot approach Soviet text math book without serious thinking effort. You need to overcome s…
> University on the West gets its money directly from students Actually, many if not most of them get the majority of their funding from government research grants and investments of their endowment, not tuition.
Doesn't matter from the pov of the university. The GP's point was that 'money source' and 'educational facility' are the same in USSR, but not in the West.
Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)
#139Earlier quoted context omitted.
For the sake of example, how was Soviet Science high school different from Stuyvesant/Brooklyn Tech/Bronx school of Science? (Just to name the ones I know of).
I am not very familiar with these schools, I am in CA. I think the biggest factor for me during my high school years was several hours per week of 1-1 discussions with currently active mathematicians and grad students. While formal math is really hard to read, a lot of ideas are very elegant and actually simple. It’s hard to find these ideas in a formal math text, but you can explain a lot of things in 1-1 setting wh…
This is what infuriates me about college level mathematics from about 12 years ago at least. Why can't they also explain it like they do in those 1-1 sessions instead of making calculus textbooks that assume you know set theory before set theory is taught in some of the worst most obtuse writing there is.
I'm glad there is khan academy now, but come on.
Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)
#140Disclaimer: I graduated from one of the top math high schools in Moscow in early 90s, I have MS in Math from Moscow State University, and a half finished PhD from the same place. I think on average the difference between a high school student from Russia and US is negligible. Either country doesn’t really require much to finish school and many kids just do the tests without understanding what is going on. What separa…
Such a program will never happen in America again because some people will complain about privilege-this and equity-that. America is basically living Vonnegut’s Harrison Bergeron already and dooming itself to mediocrity if is doesn’t realize the damage being done and correct things. What happened with NYC’s gifted and talented programs was a perfect example of this idiocy.
It did during World War II and all the physics professors I've met who went through that program were maladjusted, even for physics professors.