Singapore to Open Source Bluetooth Contact Tracing • Hacker News Board

Re: Singapore to Open Source Bluetooth Contact Tracing

#131

Post by jhanschoo » Sat, Mar 28, 2020, 12:10 AM UTC

Reelin wrote: post #105

Barrin92 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>But "stay at home" has been a mantra for weeks anyway, with everybody acting as if they and everyone else is infected.[..] But we are at this point already. Singapore isn't. (the government that is building this app). Neither is Taiwan. Through a combination of contact tracing, surveillance, national health databases and enforcing compliance of quarantined individuals by for example regularly checking in on them the…

> I will continue to be mystified ... people in Singapore give some data to authorities and they can still go out and live their lives. I want material freedom ... not some sort of religious dogmatic privacy ... For what it's worth, I think open source, opt-in, decentralized, user controlled contact tracing such as that being discussed above is about as good a solution as we can hope for in such a situation. That bei…

> Their concerns aren't about freedom in the short term, but rather civil liberties in the long term.

What's interesting to me is that with the right institutions, surveillance does not actually even diminish one's right to qualified privacy.

It can be illegal to use identifiable data for various purposes, or illegal to use identifiable data in a non-fiduciary manner.

With respect to abuses of the surveillance power, it can be employed against those in power as well, to prevent abuses of their power. e.g. police bodycam can work against abusive police if the laws should support it.

So it's important to see surveillance as a sword that needs proper laws to use responsibly, that allows a society with proper laws to obtain better freedom from actual harm and also a better quality of life. If we should just bury our heads as the technology materializes, the abusers will be the ones to exploit surveillance infrastructure.

In cautionary tales like Nineteen-Eighty-Four, Brave New World, or in the design of the Panopticon, the surveillance power was in the hands of a large power, not themselves held accountable by surveillance. But with the right laws, a citizenry can hold a government accountable and limit government and powerful offices by surveillance. These tales fail to see the how surveillance can help strengthen egalitarian institutions. They were more concerned with demonstrating just how powerful surveillance is, a reasonable point, than with how it could be employed to reinforce egalitarian institutions.

Re: Singapore to Open Source Bluetooth Contact Tracing

#132

Post by throwanem » Sat, Mar 28, 2020, 12:19 AM UTC

Proziam wrote: post #121

throwanem wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The weak should be winnowed from the strong, that the strong may prosper without being held back" is an idea that attracts your sympathy, though?

You seem to love misrepresenting people's views, or perhaps you just really don't comprehend them. No, I don't think the unfortunate should be harmed or taken advantage of. I also don't think anyone should be forced to surrender their rights to governments, period. Everyone should have an equal opportunity to prosper in this world. That is impossible so long as there's some 'higher power' manipulating the system to t…

Meanwhile, contact tracing, in places like South Korea, Hong Kong, and Singapore, appears to have made a major difference in the rate of transmission. In those countries, people have to some greater or lesser extent traded privacy for security, and - so far, at least - it appears to be working.

Is that a choice they all individually made? Of course not. There are penalties for noncompliance, same as for laws here in the US, whether you agree with them or not. Did that also, though, save a lot of lives? Ask again in a year, I suppose; it's too soon to tell.

But by the same token, it's too soon to call that a failure, at least if lives saved is a figure of merit.

I think it should be. I'm not averse in concept to the sacrifice of life in defense of principle, but I am very much averse to the sacrifice of some life in defense of others' principle.

You spoke earlier of the horrors of dictatorship, of totalitarianism, and the like? As far as I'm concerned, every one of them starts right here. If you want to die on behalf of whatever principles you hold dear, you're welcome. That's your life to spend. It is the only life that's yours to spend.

Re: Singapore to Open Source Bluetooth Contact Tracing

#133

Post by throwanem » Sat, Mar 28, 2020, 12:20 AM UTC

teddyh wrote: post #127

throwanem wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious how many people who now say "give me privacy or give me death!" will change their tune in a hurry once they are themselves, perhaps for the first time in their lives, in real danger of dying. I regret that - assuming my own ongoing case of COVID-19 resolves without fatal complication - I'm quite likely, I think, to have that curiosity satisfied. I regret it because this isn't a cause for change of perspec…

This is like saying “There are no atheists in foxholes.” People who say it might believe it, but it is demonstrably false.

I'm sure there are a few!

Re: Singapore to Open Source Bluetooth Contact Tracing

#134

Post by Proziam » Sat, Mar 28, 2020, 1:01 AM UTC

throwanem wrote: post #132

Proziam wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to love misrepresenting people's views, or perhaps you just really don't comprehend them. No, I don't think the unfortunate should be harmed or taken advantage of. I also don't think anyone should be forced to surrender their rights to governments, period. Everyone should have an equal opportunity to prosper in this world. That is impossible so long as there's some 'higher power' manipulating the system to t…

Meanwhile, contact tracing, in places like South Korea, Hong Kong, and Singapore, appears to have made a major difference in the rate of transmission. In those countries, people have to some greater or lesser extent traded privacy for security, and - so far, at least - it appears to be working . Is that a choice they all individually made? Of course not. There are penalties for noncompliance, same as for laws here in…

Yet you're advocating to arrange things for everyone according to your principles which can also, demonstrably, cost lives. I'm advocating that individuals make choices for themselves about when to work together to solve a crisis, or when to avoid one another, or when to collaborate with their government, or when to oppose it.

Totalitarian regimes start with the people being stripped of their freedoms. In every case throughout history, they have stripped people of their rights to speech and defense.

> I am very much averse to the sacrifice of some life in defense of others' principle.

Then advocate for a better healthcare system and government accountability. They don't need to have the system to track people in order to provide healthcare, restrict foreign travel, or issue public guidance on how to handle the situation.

Besides, most people would happily volunteer the information, assuming it was on their terms and reasonably secure. But it never is.

> lives saved figure of merit

I agree, it should be. But you're not counting the lives lost or destroyed by the choice you favor. The "compromise" isn't to give up rights, it's to improve healthcare and preparation for situations like this.

Evil regimes killed 100+ Million people in around a 100 year period. Not allowing governments the power to do that level of evil saves more lives than the coronavirus could ever take.

Re: Singapore to Open Source Bluetooth Contact Tracing

#135

Post by _8j50 » Sat, Mar 28, 2020, 1:06 AM UTC

It should be opt-in, if you don't opt-in,mandatory quara tine for you. And this should not be something they can renew after the crisis like the US Patriot act.

Re: Singapore to Open Source Bluetooth Contact Tracing

#136

Post by jshevek » Sat, Mar 28, 2020, 2:41 AM UTC

buzzkillington wrote: post #126

throwanem wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a mercy you won't be held to this when you get sick, and find it's somewhat easier to talk in the abstract about coming to terms with death than to face the imminent possibility. edit: Well, you won't be held to it assuming we haven't reached a need for sufficiently severe triage, I suppose. Otherwise, you might get a chance to quite literally put your life on the line for the principle you've just espoused! I w…

>It's a mercy you won't be held to this when you get sick, and find it's somewhat easier to talk in the abstract about coming to terms with death than to face the imminent possibility. It's unfortunate that you're a coward. Death is not something to fear, and with a stock of strong pain killers neither is dying.

Reflecting on how my relationship with death has varied with my life experiences, I don't think you know enough about his particular experience to call him a coward.

Re: Singapore to Open Source Bluetooth Contact Tracing

#137

Post by throwanem » Sat, Mar 28, 2020, 3:06 AM UTC

Proziam wrote: post #134

throwanem wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meanwhile, contact tracing, in places like South Korea, Hong Kong, and Singapore, appears to have made a major difference in the rate of transmission. In those countries, people have to some greater or lesser extent traded privacy for security, and - so far, at least - it appears to be working . Is that a choice they all individually made? Of course not. There are penalties for noncompliance, same as for laws here in…

Yet you're advocating to arrange things for everyone according to your principles which can also, demonstrably, cost lives. I'm advocating that individuals make choices for themselves about when to work together to solve a crisis, or when to avoid one another, or when to collaborate with their government, or when to oppose it. Totalitarian regimes start with the people being stripped of their freedoms. In every case…

> Then advocate for a better healthcare system and government accountability

Yes. But failing that, I'll take contact tracing and risking fines for breaking quarantine - which I would now be liable for, assuming I had also even been able to be tested in order to become a confirmed case, which is apparently too much to ask at the moment - over the combination of adtech surveillance for no greater point than to make money, and incompetent government response that seems all but guaranteed to end five or six figures' worth of lives minimum, that we have now.

Re: Singapore to Open Source Bluetooth Contact Tracing

#138

Post by zyl1n » Sat, Mar 28, 2020, 3:30 AM UTC

mshroyer wrote: post #26

Rifu wrote: post #23

I think in these extraordinary times, it’s nice to see the government proactively trying to do more to counteract the worst pandemic the country has ever seen. As much as we might all cry foul over the curtailing of freedom, there is a lot to be said in this current environment about contact tracers immediately knowing who a known covid carrier has come in contact with, which in turn means a speedier response from th…

I agree this is bad, but I don't understand why it is. Not an iOS developer but I was under the impression apps can run in the background to maintain Bluetooth connections. Assuming Apple's policies are in fact preventing them from running in the background, does Apple have a mechanism to grant them an exception for this use case? Does someone have a contact at Apple who could reach out to them?

Not an iOS developer either, but I think apps cannot make new bluetooth connections in background, which is a requirement for this app.

Re: Singapore to Open Source Bluetooth Contact Tracing

#139

Post by cjbprime » Sat, Mar 28, 2020, 3:56 AM UTC

mshroyer wrote: post #22

tomcooks wrote: post #12

Can't wait to be tracked by tech developed by a governmental team in the name of safety. Opensource or not a leash is a leash.

This is needlessly cynical. TraceTogether uses client-side logging so as to leave data in the hands of the users up until it's actually needed for contact tracing. Would you suggest that we not have public health departments engage in contact tracing at all to combat the pandemic? If so, I'm not sure what to tell you. Otherwise, apps may go a long way to improve the speed and accuracy of contact tracing. Here in the…

> Would you suggest that we not have public health departments engage in contact tracing at all to combat the pandemic? If so, I'm not sure what to tell you.

It's fine, but as Jean Yang pointed out on Twitter, no-one would ordinarily call disclosing everyone you'd shared a location with over weeks "privacy-preserving". And once you've done it for some large fraction of infected people, you end up with a country-wide social graph built up, even though you weren't conducting mass surveillance in the usual meaning.

It's a loss of privacy either way (whether done via location or Bluetooth contact). I'd rather just have the conversation about how we've decided to suspend physical metadata privacy to combat the pandemic, than act like the Singapore model is going to preserve it.

Re: Singapore to Open Source Bluetooth Contact Tracing

#140

Post by dang » Sat, Mar 28, 2020, 5:20 AM UTC

throwanem wrote: post #111

Proziam wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All the soldiers, firefighters, and doctors/nurses/EMTs (and many more) are putting their lives on the line for what they believe in. Some of them believe in the constitution and some of them simply desire to help their fellow man. Not everyone is so weak that they sell out others for their own benefit, and assuming the worst of others only serves to expose your values, or lack thereof. > I wish you joy of it. That w…

"The weak should be winnowed from the strong, that the strong may prosper without being held back" is an idea that attracts your sympathy, though?

"Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith."

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html