Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

mitadmissions.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

131–140 of 465 posts

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#131

Post by thedance »

rickwierenga wrote: post #56
jimbob45 wrote: post #9

Note to those who haven't been in high school for some time: these aren't the main test. The main test still gets considered (in addition to your parents' money) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAT_Subject_Tests

> (in addition to your parents' money) That is not true. MIT is need blind which means it doesn't consider financial needs [1]. [1] https://mitadmissions.org/afford/cost-aid-basics/access-affo...

"As for the children of prominent campus donors, [former MIT director of undergraduate admissions] Crowley said a college's development office might reach out to the dean of admissions to say, "Hey, just so you know, Lisa's dad has been very generous to us in the past, or something."

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#132

Post by jzoch »

llcoolv wrote: post #122
fallingknife wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that's entirely the point. The people bitching about how the SAT isn't fair aren't smart poor people who are being beaten out by upper middle class losers, but rather upper middle class losers being beaten out by smart poor people. They tell themselves that the test isn't fair, but a part of them knows that they could never get into the 1500's even with all the prep in the world, so they try to get the admissions…

On top of that exam dumps are much less efficient when it comes to SAT IIs, where questions are much more diverse an subject knowledge is essential. SAT I is the one that is easy to game.

Eh its all easily game-able. The SAT (and ACT) is a joke. So are the subject tests. The only subject test that wasn't laughable are the language ones (since you can't "intuit" spanish as easily as math or physics or chemistry). Its not bad if you are a good test taker (a dumb skill but a useful one) or wealthy. My friends were tutored idiots and did well (2200+ SAT, 700+ subject tests) and i was a good test taker (same scores). Its all garbage

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#133

Post by pozdnyshev »

fallingknife wrote: post #107
knzhou wrote: post #57

Anybody cheering the exclusion of some test or other, because it was a pain to study for in high school, is simply not noticing the frog-boiling secondary effects going on. Every bit of emphasis taken out of objective results mean more advantage for smooth talking, photogenic, well-connected people. Yes, some misguided parents waste thousands of dollars on SAT courses. But students can also prep using the $20 officia…

But that's entirely the point. The people bitching about how the SAT isn't fair aren't smart poor people who are being beaten out by upper middle class losers, but rather upper middle class losers being beaten out by smart poor people. They tell themselves that the test isn't fair, but a part of them knows that they could never get into the 1500's even with all the prep in the world, so they try to get the admissions…

I mean this is America, a country where the poor are extremely marginalized and have no avenue for representation and public opinion. This is absolutely helping those with less resources.

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#134

Post by [deleted] »

llcoolv wrote: post #122
fallingknife wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that's entirely the point. The people bitching about how the SAT isn't fair aren't smart poor people who are being beaten out by upper middle class losers, but rather upper middle class losers being beaten out by smart poor people. They tell themselves that the test isn't fair, but a part of them knows that they could never get into the 1500's even with all the prep in the world, so they try to get the admissions…

On top of that exam dumps are much less efficient when it comes to SAT IIs, where questions are much more diverse an subject knowledge is essential. SAT I is the one that is easy to game.

[deleted]

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#135

Post by hoka-one-one »

Spivak wrote: post #90
hoka-one-one wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who has used similar accommodations (though not specifically on the SAT), yes. Dyslexia will hold you back in college. SAT is intended to measure odds of success in college.

You're not wrong but I think that's due to how much of university is based around timed tests. The artificial difficulty is maddening. I was fortunate that my school's disability office had fangs and that the maths program wasn't super competitive and wanted students to learn more than get marks. My favorite professor was teaching number theory and always scheduled his classes for the end day and gave unlimited time…

I disagree that it's artificial. There's only so much time in a day. A programmer who can do a task in one hour will in the long run outsprint one who needs two.

Yes, you can (like many, many others) spend an extra couple hours at work every day, but it'll all come back to center eventually. Sometimes, or even much of the time, you won't even have that option. These are times when people seriously depend on you to perform.

It's not personal. I get that it can be stressful and I've been there but I don't kid myself that I'm as good as the people who can work quickly and under pressure.

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#136

Post by supernova87a »

If they ever extend this to the SAT / ACT itself (and not just the subject tests) I will have lost a lot of respect for MIT.

A goal of higher education is to give the opportunity to people who will likely make the best use of the education, and have the greatest chance of succeeding given their preparation. Spots at top colleges are a limited resource. There has to be a selection function, and an unbiased test that asks questions about math, reading comprehension, etc. is as close as you're going to get.

The SAT, regardless of your opinion of whether it exacerbates or merely reflects inequities in the system, is a very strong indicator of whether a person has the preparation to succeed at university. You cannot get around that fact.

Whether high-priced prep courses or studying out of a book from the library help you pass the test, the person doing either of those things has gotten education and skills along the way. God forbid you consider the idea that someone actually learned something even though the test was standardized. And the fact that even poor families will pay to put their kids through test prep courses suggests they see value in it. It's not like they're paying to be given instructions on how to cheat the system.

People who want to water down the admissions criteria to be a social equalizer ought not mask their motives by saying that the test is flawed. The test is perfectly fine, and it reflects people's preparation and abilities to succeed at university. If you want to change the outcome, change the inputs -- and work on getting more people qualified to pass that test.

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#137

Post by knzhou »

dawg- wrote: post #91
knzhou wrote: post #57

Anybody cheering the exclusion of some test or other, because it was a pain to study for in high school, is simply not noticing the frog-boiling secondary effects going on. Every bit of emphasis taken out of objective results mean more advantage for smooth talking, photogenic, well-connected people. Yes, some misguided parents waste thousands of dollars on SAT courses. But students can also prep using the $20 officia…

What you call a "smooth-talker" is what someone else would call an articulate, socially well-adjusted person who can communicate their values and opinions in an intelligent way and who is comfortable making connections with others. Perhaps if this was the standard college admissions used, public schools would have more incentive to educate students as functional humans rather than test-taking drones.

> an articulate, socially well-adjusted person who can communicate their values and opinions in an intelligent way

Yes, that's me.

> and who is comfortable making connections with others

And that will never be me.

Leadership is inherently nepotistic. You simply aren't permitted to lead if you have the wrong class background or the wrong ethnicity. (There's a reason all Senators look exactly the same.) You're literally just advocating for an old boys' club, and if that's what you want, you might as well be explicit about it.

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#138

Post by thedance »

sriram_sun wrote: post #102

> "... for non-native English speakers, we strongly recommend taking the TOEFL if you have been using English for less than 5 years or do not speak English at home or in school..." I hope that TOEFL is offered on a pass/fail criteria. For. e.g. if you score (say) 85% or more, it shouldn't matter if you score 100% for purposes or communication or comprehension.

The only criteria for English should be abilities at least as good as the worst teaching assistant in the undergraduate college. This is the lowest possible standard of English language proficiency.

""" WHEN Mark W. Eichin showed up for his course in differential equations at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology this year, he found that his instructor was a Hindustani whose spoken English was ''almost incomprehensible.'' Along with most of his classmates, the freshman stopped attending lectures. ''People just got their assignments and left,'' he recalled. """

^ Consistent with my own undergrad experience.

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#139

Post by knzhou »

jzoch wrote: post #132
llcoolv wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On top of that exam dumps are much less efficient when it comes to SAT IIs, where questions are much more diverse an subject knowledge is essential. SAT I is the one that is easy to game.

Eh its all easily game-able. The SAT (and ACT) is a joke. So are the subject tests. The only subject test that wasn't laughable are the language ones (since you can't "intuit" spanish as easily as math or physics or chemistry). Its not bad if you are a good test taker (a dumb skill but a useful one) or wealthy. My friends were tutored idiots and did well (2200+ SAT, 700+ subject tests) and i was a good test taker (sa…

You're just bragging that you hit the ceiling on those tests.

That doesn't mean tests don't work; if you wanted to, you could have found much harder ones. (That's what I did, out of necessity. They wouldn't have given my app a second look if I hadn't.)

Post reply on HN