Live data from Hacker News

Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

greece.greekreporter.com

131–140 of 234 posts

Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They shouldn't and that's exactly why states are allowed to declare bankruptcy and why Puerto Rico should be allowed to declare bankruptcy. States in the EU probably should be able to also.

Greece could default, but it was not clear what would have happened to their central bank, and if a default would have pushed Greece out of the Eurozone. Due to these uncertainties, and undoubtedly also to pressure from the rest of the EU, Greece decided instead to renegotiate their debt with the Trojka.

I think an orderly bankruptcy process would have been preferable to either of those options. If I was in charge of Greece at the time I would have left the EU over it. I'm amazed Britain left and Greece stayed.

Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#132
I do fancy the moral superiority exerted by some against the Greek populace profiting by a bad line of credit.

Do they also protest German and French banks betting on Greek bonds that yielded very high interest rates? When you own a financial instrument with great upside it means it also carries a lot of risk. So, according to some, profiting from high interest rates is dandy but when it's time to pay the piper (your borrower made YOUR risk materialise) they don't want to get bankrupt, just transfer back the risk you took in the form of debt.

And of course the loaned money is not used to re-invigorate the local economy. It is going back into the French & German economies because the local economy of Greece is destroyed and their companies go in and undercut the local competition. e.g That's how shit-show supermarket chains like LIDL wiped out of existence very solid Greek supermarket chains that existed and were profitable for multiple decades before the financial crisis, but then had to do mergers or shut-down. Genius plan. And that's why Greece didn't deceive anybody to get into the Eurozone - the members just looked the other way.

The Greeks should have had defaulted and let the creditors who where profiting all those years from junk bonds (because that's what Greek government bonds were) take the hit. They would have recovered much better by now.

Finally, it's bizarre to me how many people still believe that governments represent the 'people'. No they don't, they represent their friendly neighbourhood bankster - as long as they get a good cut of the money - and the special interests which fund elected politician campaigns. Greek people preferred a default over loan bail-outs from the start. They protested heavily and in the majority but were completely ignored. Numerous MPs had the audacity to admit that they never even read the terms of the bailout. As the great George Carlin said, "They are a big club - and you ain't in it buddy"

Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#133
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's just an insult.

No it's an analogy for a population who didn't see fit to pay their taxes, have a functioning state, who thought it was a good idea to adopt a foreign currency when it didn't make sense economically, and doesn't understand why they are forced to make economic sacrifices to correct the situation. I think the accusation of ignorance is kinder than the alternative ("let's not pay our taxes, the germans will pay for us")…

> who didn't see fit to pay their taxes

With all the corruption going around I would not blame them. (even without it I would not blame them regardless. There are many people all over the world -including me- who consider taxes thievery)

Anyway, please do correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't it only the rich/rich companies that did that? Similarly to how Amazon, Google, or Apple for example pay almost no tax.

> who thought it was a good idea to adopt a foreign currency when it didn't make sense economically

Do you have a citation for this? As far as I know the Greek population was not asked about it.

Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#134
post #120
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not talking about the meetings either. The meetings were even simpler: he went there for debt negotiation with an election mandate to not capitulate and with the most open mind for compromise, and was immediately handed an ultimatum to capitulate, with quote verbatim "elections cannot be allowed to change economic policy." The crime against logic was what he discovered afterwards.

Okay, he could have not capitulated and let the electorate face the music of their decision. It was a referendum among the Greek people about what their government should do. You can't hold a referendum about what other people should give them. The UK got a Brexit referendum and they got out. Nobody would have cared if they held "EU gives as market access but we do not allow Europeans coming over and work referendum"…

He could. He was committed to a Grexit, which he calculated to be substantially better for Greece than what it has now. Then he got immense political pressure and death threats to his family.

Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#135
post #134
post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, he could have not capitulated and let the electorate face the music of their decision. It was a referendum among the Greek people about what their government should do. You can't hold a referendum about what other people should give them. The UK got a Brexit referendum and they got out. Nobody would have cared if they held "EU gives as market access but we do not allow Europeans coming over and work referendum"…

He could. He was committed to a Grexit, which he calculated to be substantially better for Greece than what it has now. Then he got immense political pressure and death threats to his family.

Right, the eurocrats threatened his family and political pressure is something that no politician should ever go through.

Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#136

That's a really shitty move. >a USB of the conversations he had secretly recorded while attending a Eurogroup discussion in Brussels People in private converse completely differently (more freely) than in public. Judging people on what they said there by a public standard (it's impossible that this will not happen) is extremely unfair. Especially since Varoufakis knew that he will be recorded, he has probably chosen…

While what you say is true, the contents of these meetings should be public knowledge. A lot of citizens of a few countries had their lives almost destroyed by the decisions of these politicians, so is only fair they know what was discussed, who defended them, etc. Let us not forget the pressure the ECB (and other european institutions) put on some countries that have come to light after the fact. (Like only allowing…

It gets tricky. If people always have this right, then closed doors are basically not allowed. That's just not really workable.

Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#137
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? "Like many EU countries, the general retirement age in Greece is 65, although the actual average is about 61. However, the deeply fragmented system also provides for early retirement – as early as 55 for men and 50 for women – in many professions classified as unhealthy." 55 and 50! https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/greece-to-ca...

Conveniently, Greece is just below Germany in the table, making for easy comparison: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retirement_age#Retirement_age_... Regarding early retirement, I'm sure this is the case in many "industrious" countries too. You probably don't want 65 year olds running around in combat boots with a machine gun and 20kg of supplies on their back.

But Germany would afford a low retirement age, while Greece could not. It is an unfair comparison, as not all other facts are equal.

Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#138
My intellect may be too small but I never understood anything Varoufakis said. I understand how shallow and hypocritical governments can be, but I never got the point of his interviews or actions, beside ranting about how imperfect things are (kinda like Snowden).

Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> While what you say is true, the contents of these meetings should be public knowledge. I honestly don't think it's that simple. While decisions should always be public, in order to come to reasonable compromises on issues, it can be valuable for leaders to be able to have closed-door conversations outside of the spotlight, where they don't have to engage in political grandstanding; after all, it's that kind of comp…

When these discussions impact so many people (various countries affected) I don't believe they should be kept secret. Lets (just for example, I am not saying it happened), during that meeting, the German/French Finance minister said: 'I don't care about the Greek people, we can't let German/French banks fall, so do what you must if you ever want the ECB to lend you money'. Wouldn't the greek people deserve to know an…

Think of it in a future context. If discussions weren't kept secret, then the German/French Finance minister would not have said that... unless he wanted the world to hear it.

Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, that's Hanlon's Razor. Either the population was ignorant of living beyond their means and adopting bad economic policies -- or they are deadbeats who willfully took out credit they had no intention of repaying.

The population is not the one who adopts the economic policies. The government is.

Governments are elected by the population. Are they then not responsible for their choices?
Post reply on HN