Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums • Hacker News Board

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#131

Post by LatteLazy » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 3:31 PM UTC

zozbot234 wrote: post #115

LatteLazy wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right now all an employer sees is time off. In Finland that means there is no difference to the employer.

I assume the health insurance costs of actually having a baby are quite non-trivial. Of course men tend to get e.g. heart attacks and the like, especially as they age, so I suppose it all balances out in the end.

Yeah, plus (I think) insurers just quote a price per employee, not a price per man/woman etc. So maybe it's easier to "price" the cost of hiring a woman (maternity leave) than a man (heart attacks or whatever)...

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#132

Post by aetimmes » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 3:31 PM UTC

I'm a US male who's 1 month into my 6 months fully-paid paternity leave with our first child.

My wife has roughly 4.5 months between banked PTO and FMLA/disability leave.

I'm sitting at home right now watching/changing/feeding our baby while my wife is out at doctor's appointments taking care of her health. Having the flexibility to practice a modicum of self-care without neglecting the health and happiness of our child has been such a huge boon to our family.

If anyone has any questions about the experience, feel free to ask.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#133

Post by tsukurimashou » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 3:31 PM UTC

toasterlovin wrote: post #51

hervature wrote: post #4

> Finland says it wants to "promote wellbeing and gender equality" Finally, a country that understands that one of the driving forces of gender inequality is the asymmetry of experience caused by maternal leave.

> Finally, a country that understands that one of the driving forces of gender inequality is the asymmetry of experience caused by maternal leave. The asymmetry of experience is actually caused by child bearing, which can only be done by women. Maternal leave is downstream from that.

no it is not

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#134

Post by gdubs » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 3:31 PM UTC

willis936 wrote: post #86

Many comments laud this as a step towards gender equality, which is a noble goal. However, I do wonder about the unforeseen consequences. All mammals (afaik) are raised by mothers. Humans are mammals. Humans do a good job of making changes to our nature, and for the most part those changes have resulted in better lives. However we still have things like nuclear families. Children aren't taken away from parents and ra…

What? Why would giving men paternity leave suddenly mean that women would become absent mothers?

As a species that grew out of bands of hunter gatherers, tribes and communities have played a huge role in raising children. Our modern circumstances are the exception — two parents, often shouldering the burden largely on their own.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#135

Post by non-entity » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 3:31 PM UTC

lardo wrote: post #33

bhaak wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But both genders can feed the baby. It is not a rare situation where a mother doesn't have enough milk to feed a baby without additional food. What other things are mother-only things in your opinion?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2939272/

I'm not sure what the point of this is, you can post any studies you want but that wont change the fact that plenty of people wont breastfeed for one reason or another

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#136

Post by ryanmercer » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 3:32 PM UTC

sudoaza wrote: post #2

Germany has this and is awesome. 14 months paid leave to distribute among the two parents.

(edit: why is this -2? I was asking a serious question!)

>14 months paid leave

Certainly you meant weeks... FMLA only covers 12 weeks of unpaid leave here in the United States.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#137

Post by kraigie » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 3:32 PM UTC

willis936 wrote: post #86

Many comments laud this as a step towards gender equality, which is a noble goal. However, I do wonder about the unforeseen consequences. All mammals (afaik) are raised by mothers. Humans are mammals. Humans do a good job of making changes to our nature, and for the most part those changes have resulted in better lives. However we still have things like nuclear families. Children aren't taken away from parents and ra…

All of your assertions are false. Male wolves and foxes help with child rearing.

Aka Pygmy Men breastfeed (some men can lactate a little) Most Women outside these tribes don't look for it in a man. Whereas there's do.

Social Services does take children away from there parents and raise them instead.

It's only culture that says just the bad children.

Colonialism commonly took natives away to be raised by society instead.

The kibbutz movement used collective child rearing. They thought it was the only way for equality.

Nuclear families are mostly a western thing. Plus we see more and more young people living together in shared housing.some in a family atmosphere. Why not shared child rearing?

Of course if there are good reasons then someone can provide them righ

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#138

Post by willis936 » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 3:32 PM UTC

blub wrote: post #113

willis936 wrote: post #86

Many comments laud this as a step towards gender equality, which is a noble goal. However, I do wonder about the unforeseen consequences. All mammals (afaik) are raised by mothers. Humans are mammals. Humans do a good job of making changes to our nature, and for the most part those changes have resulted in better lives. However we still have things like nuclear families. Children aren't taken away from parents and ra…

Under Finland's system mother are still given maternal leave, but the fathers now get mandatory leave too. That's how I understood it, no country would forbid the mother maternal leave, except maybe the US.

So then why would men be entitled to paternal leave? Because another sex is given leave?

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#139

Post by plufz » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 3:32 PM UTC

willis936 wrote: post #86

Many comments laud this as a step towards gender equality, which is a noble goal. However, I do wonder about the unforeseen consequences. All mammals (afaik) are raised by mothers. Humans are mammals. Humans do a good job of making changes to our nature, and for the most part those changes have resulted in better lives. However we still have things like nuclear families. Children aren't taken away from parents and ra…

Humans are herd animals. From what I know there is consensus among developmental psychologists for attachment theory. A theory that roughly states that the caregiver or caregivers a child has from 6 months of age to two years old is very important and forms how the child will form relationships with other humans during the rest of their life. It does not need to be a single caregiver nor that the caregiver is the mother.

Edit: Historically it has not been uncommon for the mother to die while giving birth. So it has always been important for us to accept other caregivers than our birth mothers.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#140

Post by the_af » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 3:33 PM UTC

sandos wrote: post #110

socialdemocrat wrote: post #22

Good job Finland! Fellow Nordic here (Norwegian) and a dad. The father quota here in Norway made a huge social change. It really helped make it socially acceptable for dads to spend more time with their children. I noticed for my two sons how much of a difference it makes being around your kids when they are young. You cannot cannot substitute short time with "quality time." The amount of time you are there matters a…

Its also good for the dads! "Globally, paternity leave can increase fathers’ involvement within families and this has benefits for the children, the co-parent, the father himself, the economy and society." https://www.thestar.com.my/news/nation/2019/06/16/involved-d...

It's definitely good for the dads. Quality time with my baby is huge; I can tell how she is bonding with me with each moment we spend together, and I despair that I don't get these extended leaves the Finns have.