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An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

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Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#131

Post by darawk »

fzeroracer wrote: post #94
darawk wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You said that they were equally negatively impacted though and I brought up an example of where that is clearly not the case. Which is parental leave, done in a way as to discourage men from taking time off to take care of a newborn while also pressuring women to be the primary caregivers. Read what I said more carefully. I didn't say all men are equally negatively impacted. I said the men who choose to take on the…

> Read what I said more carefully. I didn't say all men are equally negatively impacted. I said the men who choose to take on the burden of childcare are equally negatively impacted. And I think you need to reread my argument, which is specifically talking about those men who do take on the burden of childcare against the societal pressure to do otherwise. I think it would do you well to reread my argument from the t…

Yes, you are making a separate line of argument that is completely unrelated to the piece of my argument you quoted. I am not responding to that because I agree with it - social pressure that pushes women into childcare is sexism. The impact of choosing childcare over career on economic is not sexism.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#132

Post by alharith »

Woke twitter after reading this article: Having children is a tool of the patriarchy! Another way that men keep women down! Why don't they have the biological maternal desires to have children?

Technocratic twitter after reading this article: We must solve the “maternal tax” gap!

Normal people after reading this article: "yes, this is what we have been saying for years. Promote the family."

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#133

Post by [deleted] »

henrikschroder wrote: post #101
detoxdetox wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lost in the modern rush for status and money, "obscenely convenient high quality daycare" used to be called "Motherhood" and was supplied by Mothers themselves. Some would argue, the most valuable contribution to society, even if not directly monetized. To sustain a healthy population, we used to need 10 children per fertile woman, which made "stay at home Mother" an obvious necessity for the vast majority of women.…

> and make room for Mothers to take care of their own children. Whoa, 50's regression much? Why not make room for fathers to take care of their own children? > in the care of poorly paid strangers Or you could leave your children in the care of educated professionals in child development, who will ensure your children gets age- and stage-appropriate stimulation, as well as socialization with other children in a safe…

[deleted]

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#134

Post by fizwhiz »

thereisnospork wrote: post #107
fizwhiz wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> STEM fields rarely pay even close to what consulting, law and medicine pay. Peers of equivalent talent in those 3 professions are generally making double to triple (if not more) by the time STEM graduates reach the same moment in their personal lives. These statements couldn't be further from the truth. You don't need to hang out on HN for long to figure out that FAANG SWEs comfortably make upwards of 400k in their…

SWE's are a tiny slice of 'STEM' and by far the most profitable. How much do you think the average phd in biology makes? maybe 30k/y till 27, then 45k/y till 30, then followed by 75-90?

I think your example of a biologist is a bit disingenuous. By 27 they've probably just wrapped up their PhD and were making a paltry stipend to work in a professor's research lab. If they're inclined to continue working for academia then it's not surprising that they won't break past 6 figures. You could just as easily pick people from different fields that are pursuing a career in academia and find that professors at the top-tier make a fraction of what their students make at top-tier companies.

I also think the remark about "stability" was hand wavy. What is it about non-SWE STEM roles that make them so unstable compared to consulting or law?

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#135

Post by hammeringtime »

tathougies wrote: post #47
amb23 wrote: post #34

Mothers--the vast majority of mothers, not the aristocracic ones we model our current family structures off of--have always worked. They'd strap the baby on their back and go to the fields to plow or gather the harvest or cook or weave or chop firewood. Motherhood as as a full-time job is a modern invention; historically, it was a side gig. I'd love to see a startup tackle this problem: think a benefits platform that…

Daycare isn't an appropriate analogue to your example though. A shift in culture that allows you to bring your children to work would be and would be absolutely sensible for white collar and several blue collar jobs.

A shift in culture that allows you to bring your children to work would be and would be absolutely sensible for white collar and several blue collar jobs.

Young children (under three) babble and screech and cry and explore and try to finger everything and put everything in their mouth and then screech when you take the thing away from them or try to restrain them from getting at that shiny object they really want. They play for a few minutes then come running over demanding attention and screech if you ignore them. They get hungry and cry, they fall and cry. And this cannot be trained out of them because they are too young for that.

None of this is a problem if you have baby proofed your house and they can wander and play with whatever they want, and if you are just doing chores and can give them the love and attention when they demand it and go back to your chore when they go back to playing again. But it is a big problem if you and other people are trying to concentrate and work.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#136

Post by adamsea »

detoxdetox wrote: post #79
entee wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with this and the subtlety of the OP’s argument. There is clearly a problem, there are clearly many contributors, I have personally seen The OP situation play out with my female friends/colleagues in STEM (and other “high power” sectors). This does NOT discount that sexism still is a problem nor that there may be cultural/societal norms that influence the family planning issue. It’s a complicated issue, it ne…

Lost in the modern rush for status and money, "obscenely convenient high quality daycare" used to be called "Motherhood" and was supplied by Mothers themselves. Some would argue, the most valuable contribution to society, even if not directly monetized. To sustain a healthy population, we used to need 10 children per fertile woman, which made "stay at home Mother" an obvious necessity for the vast majority of women.…

> Instead, we are soft forcing Mothers to drop their kids in the care of poorly paid strangers

What is a "Mother"? Is it different from a "mother".

And I was a bit surprised by your conclusion - initially I thought you were going to argue that high-quality daycare, childcare, and maternity leave, are so valuable to society that they should be provided as a service by the government and/or guaranteed by law to be provided by employers.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#137

Post by skinkestek »

henrikschroder wrote: post #101
detoxdetox wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lost in the modern rush for status and money, "obscenely convenient high quality daycare" used to be called "Motherhood" and was supplied by Mothers themselves. Some would argue, the most valuable contribution to society, even if not directly monetized. To sustain a healthy population, we used to need 10 children per fertile woman, which made "stay at home Mother" an obvious necessity for the vast majority of women.…

> and make room for Mothers to take care of their own children. Whoa, 50's regression much? Why not make room for fathers to take care of their own children? > in the care of poorly paid strangers Or you could leave your children in the care of educated professionals in child development, who will ensure your children gets age- and stage-appropriate stimulation, as well as socialization with other children in a safe…

> Whoa, 50's regression much? Why not make room for fathers to take care of their own children?

Nothing wrong with that, but mother goes first for obvious biological reasons.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#138

Post by darawk »

clairity wrote: post #116
darawk wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the employer is not beside the point. The employer pays your salary. If you do less work, you get less salary. That isn't saying their work isn't valuable, it is saying it isn't valuable to the employer . The person who values work pays for it. In this case, it is the woman herself who values the work. She is literally choosing to pay herself, in the form of a well cared for child. In the same way that when I cle…

and that's the systemic sexism--the systemic choices about what should, and what doesn't need, to be paid for. why don't we instead have a society where all childcare is paid labor and we just "pay ourselves" for other self-benefitting labor (growing food, for example)? (collective) assumptions like these are the systemic sexism. note that this is different from calling a specific person a sexist.

> and that's the systemic sexism--the systemic choices about what should, and what doesn't need, to be paid for.

Who is it you think ought to be paying for childcare? It's clear who pays for wage labor. The employer pays for it, because they value it.

> why don't we instead have a society where all childcare is paid labor and we just "pay ourselves" for other self-benefitting labor (growing food, for example)?

The answer to this question is "the entire history of economics and every lesson ever learned about how to structure effective civilizations for the entire history of humanity". I'm not really sure how else to respond to that.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#140

Post by Damorian »

tathougies wrote: post #59
danharaj wrote: post #4

The fact that women shoulder the primary economic burden of raising children is structural sexism. Sexism is not merely about personal conduct but also how we structure society. For millenia across many cultures women have had their participation in broader society curtailed to the sphere of reproductive and domestic labor. That is injustice. As Morenz notes, we don't have to accept that. We can structure our work so…

Have you considered that the primary enforcer of this curtailment is not adults but infants? I mean, I took long paternity leave, I am with my daughter at night, and am with her whenever I am home. She still wants to nurse on her mothers breast when she's sick or in pain. This makes sense as not only is it comforting to her (and a childs emotional need is very real) but it is also physiologically beneficial (nursing…

This is an obvious truth to anyone with children. Women have to carry, birth, and recover from having a baby plus raise/feed them in the first 1-2 years. There are so many biological factors here that objectively make women better primary caretakers for children, putting careers on hold because raising a child is harder than most careers, that anyone arguing it's sexism is flat out ignorant of the reality of raising a child. I hate that progressives/feminists try to paint child rearing as an inferior choice to a "proper" career when it is something women excel at, and should be embraced and encouraged.

Men and women can both program, sure, but only women can make people. Society simply reflects this.

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