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An ant colony has memories its individual members don’t have (2019)

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Re: An ant colony has memories its individual members don’t have (2019)

#131

Post by uoaei »

hachibu wrote: post #122
uoaei wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm trying to figure out a way to incorporate this notion of hierarchical life into panpsychism and the "global brain" hypothesis. (Disclaimer: I'm already sold on and a proponent of the theory of panpsychism.) It seems more and more to me like this hierarchy goes all the way up (to the single superorganism that is the universe) and all the way down (to the presence or absence of fermions in particular states, induci…

Oh wow, thanks for the great reply. I didn't think anyone would respond. I'm going to dig into the links. Do you have any other suggested reading?

I'd suggest, if you're already receptive to these concepts, to delve into Buddhist/Zen Buddhist/Taoist literature in addition to the more cerebral (pun?!) stuff out there. They're basically saying the same thing, albeit with much different language and framing. In particular the notions of interdependence, sunyata (my personal favorite idea/concept ever), and duality(ies).

Beyond that, unfortunately most of my exposure to the ideas related to panpsychism come in fits and bursts, and usually pieces which aren't about panpsychism inspire my ponderance more. Subjects include: animal consciousness/experience; the apparent intelligence of complex systems, whether man-made or independently-arising; autonomic, pre-conscious behavior in humans; computational theory, especially in physical systems; emergence and complexity writ large; complex adaptive systems in general.

Unfortunately I haven't done a lot of seeking out books on this topic. Nautilus and Aeon magazines (the latter is linked in OP) have thought-provoking stuff which touch on these topics more often than you'd think.

Re: An ant colony has memories its individual members don’t have (2019)

#132

Post by K0SM0S »

bobosha wrote: post #59
anonytrary wrote: post #2

> Ants use the rate at which they meet and smell other ants, or the chemicals deposited by other ants, to decide what to do next. A neuron uses the rate at which it is stimulated by other neurons to decide whether to fire. In both cases, memory arises from changes in how ants or neurons connect and stimulate each other. Main takeaway, very interesting analogy. Ant colonies are great examples of complex systems with e…

>Main takeaway, very interesting analogy. Ant colonies are great examples of complex systems with emergent large-scale behavior. Indeed the same could be said about networks of neurons. Interesting to think of an ant colony as the sum of oscillations of signals. Or perhaps like a Fourier decomposition of a complex waveform. Whereby each ant essentially becomes a constituent "wave" in a complex signal.

That's my intuition for the brain, as well. Something to do with composition and relative independence, from which arise incredible complexity, "multi-dimensional" processing — it's a big, big graph.

You might have to consider several such "waves" in ant colonies — maybe one electrically defined for a certain type of information; another chemically defined for another domain; etc.

Re: An ant colony has memories its individual members don’t have (2019)

#133

Post by K0SM0S »

Psyladine wrote: post #99
wsc981 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both this article and the one you linked reminded me also of what Nassim Nicholas Taleb described in "The Most Intolerant Wins: The Dictatorship of the Small Minority" [0]. > The main idea behind complex systems is that the ensemble behaves in way not predicted by the components. The interactions matter more than the nature of the units. Studying individual ants will never (one can safely say never for most such situ…

>The interactions matter more than the nature of the units. Studying individual ants will never (one can safely say never for most such situations), never give us an idea on how the ant colony operates. For that, one needs to understand an ant colony as an ant colony, no less, no more, not a collection of ants. This is called an “emergent” property of the whole, by which parts and whole differ because what matters is…

I really appreciate Taleb's ideas in general, but this one strikes me as emotionally-driven, vastly more "intuitive" than substantiated.

It's a like a world chess master or NBA player telling others "play better!" — what Taleb means here, imho, is that too many scientists fail to propose models that fits his mathematical perception, his world view, but if it were that simple, he'd have a book called "system thinking".

He touches a lot on how he views things, so you can infer a lot of his mental framework from reading e.g. the Black Swan or Antifragile — both great in their own respect. But simple rules on this topic, that would/will be groundbreaking.

I honestly pride myself as a "transdisciplinary" mind (which comes with a lot of "imposter-of-all-trades" syndrom, but meh, it's also humbling to realize the path to knowledge may not be the most rewarding short-term path). Taleb is one of those relatively "wide" minds, he's able to speak with substance on a lot of domains, but like many abstract thinkers I think he displays a lot of the casualness towards the difficulty of actual implementation.

It's great to talk about systems but the reality is often about refactoring horrible codebases and if it works you'd rather spend more money on the actual mission that making things and concepts prettier. Even, especially at the edge.

My 2 cts obviously. TL;DR, I wouldn't look much into it. It's one of those things we only hear because who says it is famous, not because there's so much velocity to the idea.

Re: An ant colony has memories its individual members don’t have (2019)

#134

Post by K0SM0S »

wsc981 wrote: post #62
tobinfricke wrote: post #4

Reminds me of the "Tradition is smarter than you are" article that was posted here a few days ago. http://scholars-stage.blogspot.com/2018/08/tradition-is-smar...

Both this article and the one you linked reminded me also of what Nassim Nicholas Taleb described in "The Most Intolerant Wins: The Dictatorship of the Small Minority" [0]. > The main idea behind complex systems is that the ensemble behaves in way not predicted by the components. The interactions matter more than the nature of the units. Studying individual ants will never (one can safely say never for most such situ…

There is a lot of truth in your approach, imho. By truth I mean these things that we allow ourselves to accept even if we don't understand it fully, and "let the data speak" — experience will be the judge.

I've researched a lot of human-made content for "being better" — from ancient religions and myth to modern self-development passing by classic philosophies and hordes of thinkers, whatever I could put my eyes on.

It's obviously just anecdotal, probably, but there is a lot of truth and a lot of good in very ancient principles and philosophies. Just yesterday I was reading on how "restrictions" in the Jewish tradition are meant to essentially implement what we'd call "self-discipline" today, which is a clear marker of one's ability to succeed in most life's endeavors — conduct projects, maintain relationships, etc. It's basically just the idea that having a ritualistic frame of lifelong habits is an extremely strong basis to implement whatever change you will require in life, and to resist things that tempt you but you shouldn't. It's just training, basically, and all validated by modern neuro-cognitive sciences and psychology.

Hindsight is 20/20 but it gives a sense of "how true" some ancestral, or random, or even anecdotal idea or principle may be, and why it "endures" and resonates for so long across people, centuries.

Buddhism is notorious for how close it is to a lot of what we call cognitive therapy (or training, if you're not 'sick' but after improvement). The Tao Te Ching in particular, very relatably to Stoicism in the Western world, is a treasure of happiness and greatness for countless people across the ages. I'd really not refrain myself from "discovering" the essence of buddhism, it can only be an addition to your own philosophical distinctiveness. ;-)

And your girlfriend probably loves that you discover here through this medium, too.

Re: An ant colony has memories its individual members don’t have (2019)

#135

Post by shostack »

fho wrote: post #65
asplake wrote: post #10

For a sci-fi take on this, Children of Time and Children of Ruin, Adrian Tchaikovsky

Just to elaborate (mild spoilers): At some point in the Children of Time book, ant colonies become domesticated and are cultivated into general computation "devices". I definitely recommend the first book, but have yet to finish the second one.

Second one has a different vibe, but I also enjoyed it. The author has a great way of helping you understand the different senses and intelligence of the different species.

Re: An ant colony has memories its individual members don’t have (2019)

#137

Post by to1y »

visarga wrote: post #117
afthonos wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Such as whether we are unique and special, or that we may also be deterministic automatons and free will doesn't exist. That's only scratching the surface of the implications. The real question arises when we have to decide what moral rights consciousness proffers. A lot of arguments for and against vegetarianism, for instance, focus on whether animals suffer in a way that we would understand as suffering. A lot of…

Don't worry, if it is conscious it will fight back and have a will of its own. It won't be hard to tell. But we could quickly settle this question if we checked some things first: does it need anything (have necessities)? does it learn? can it act on its environment? Can it evolve? Is it part of a group or alone? If no, then it's probably not conscious. All the conscious agents I know have one and the same ultimate g…

>Don't worry, if it is conscious it will fight back and have a will of its own. It won't be hard to tell.

If life was a cartoon maybe.

Although i'm sure many people would argue if it believes its conscious we have no right to dispute, as we cannot know and even may be essentially the same.

Re: An ant colony has memories its individual members don’t have (2019)

#138

Post by kryogen1c »

soulofmischief wrote: post #125
hansbo wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Main takeaway, very interesting analogy. Ant colonies are great examples of complex systems with emergent large-scale behavior. Indeed the same could be said about networks of neurons. Interesting to think of an ant colony as the sum of oscillations of signals. Indeed. I've long thought that an ant colony should be seen as a single individual, rather than a group. One part which can procreate, like the reproductive…

The emergent layers are organelles -> cell -> tissue -> organ -> organ system -> organism -> organization. Consciousness is an emergent phenomenon and a collection of consciousness is the noosphere. Even though each of your organs make their own decisions and contribute individually to your "consciousness", you still consider the entire thing your "self". Your decisions are made based on analyzing multiple conflictin…

https://giphy.com/gifs/keanu-reeves-uPnKU86sFa2fm
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