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How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)

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Re: How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)

#131

Post by fit2rule »

twobat wrote: post #45
fit2rule wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The People of America may not want war. But the people of USA™, Inc. do. Which one are you? >Leaders are to blame but most of the people in this world are just living their life. The people get the leaders they deserve. This is because people are the ultimate power - convince enough people to go along with you overtly: you're a dictator. Covertly: you're a 1% of 1%'er, who knows the right strings to pull in the world…

> The people get the leaders they deserve. No, they don't. There's no voting system that allows everyone to be represented.

Yes, they do. Nobody is ruled without their own complicity.

Re: How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)

#132

Post by mytailorisrich »

ljw1001 wrote: post #58
entropyneur wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure what kind mental leap would take one from "USA has terrible foreign policy" to "authoritarianism is the way to go for my country". It just doesn't seem to be plausible. The fun thing about authoritarianism though is that you don't really have to want it to end up under it.

I'm not sure that's the argument people are making. For Iran, it was US overthrew our fledgling democracy and replaced him with a tyrant , whose oppression led to a(n Islamic) revolution, which just gave us a different kind of tyrant. Part of the issue we see in the Middle East, IMO, is that Islamists got the upper hand because they were the only organizations that were tolerated under the oppressive regimes that exi…

Regarding Iran, the Shah was a stooge and Western influence was seen as too strong. We often see pictures of women in miniskirts in Tehran during the 70s like if that was a sign of a great time... except that the Iranian population was more conservative and did not see that as a positive.

The Islamists were both nationalists and traditionalists and got the upper hand because of that.

Iran is a great and old culture and civilisation and, like perhaps China, they won't let foreigners take over and dictate the rules.

Unfortunately, it looks like the USA still don't get that.

Re: How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)

#133

Post by surewhynat »

Const-me wrote: post #119
surewhynat wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, not a post about Ukraine, but, ok ... >Technically that’s true, but it’s important to remember the protest was peaceful for couple months. Then police started the violence. People have a right of self-defense. Violent protest is not the answer, not when they had an election coming up very soon. > Despite Ukraine have been fighting Russian army for almost 5 years now, what you’re saying is not true: Millions of…

> Violent protest is not the answer Too bad the old Ukrainian government didn’t know it, and started to use violence against it’s own people. > Millions of people have fled the country to work abroad The economy is global, air travel is cheap, Internet simplified things a lot. Ukraine is no exception. Globally, 258 million people, myself included, are living outside their country of birth. > Your graph displaying som…

You're now fighting with me on two different conversation threads, what seems like just for the sake of fighting at this point.

Violent protest is always greeted with crowd control. In Every Country. You seem to be forgetting that the Ukrainian population caused a revolution, instead of waiting for the election for a few more months.

Have a look at the violence from protestors just before it all fell apart.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stK3YPz6WTc

The people are worse off today than they were before. Not everyone supported their revolution, and you can deny that all you want, but, the people in the Donbass don't want to be a part of the circus that is Ukraine in its current state.

> Currency exchange rates are irrelevant.

Clearly I'm beating a dead horse. I don't know where to begin explaining to you that currency is not irrelevant.

About the mass emigration, these are people who have not filed for citizenship with other countries because in a lot of circumstances they cannot. No one is coming to Ukraine looking at it as a desirable place to live at the moment. There are less jobs in Ukraine, there is less trade in Ukraine, people have no choice but to work abroad.

Yes, I am also aware of the cases of some defected ex-Russian military helping the Donbass fighters, but, again you keep ignoring the fact that 99% of the population enlisted in fighting are citizens of the Donbass...

How can you honestly argue that the status quo is better than it was before the revolution? What are you even arguing?

Re: How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)

#134

Post by NicoJuicy »

JoBrad wrote: post #120
Youden wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whatever Russia has done, I don't see it as a threat to the security of the world as a whole. Russia lacks the ability to project force around the world (e.g. it lacks aircraft carriers and a modern air force) and the EU's military spending alone is ~4x Russia's _before_ the Ruble collapsed. The US however has an obscene amount of military power and has shown that it's happy to use it for a full-scale invasion of ano…

That's not exactly a fair comparison, since Russia hasn't had the funding to make any large-scale invasions since then. However they were more than happy to cut off oil to Europe just a few years ago, invade Ukraine, and generally act in a belligerent way toward several different countries in an effort to destabilize their neighbors.

And that is insanely stupid.

Russia doesn't profit from war, but by selling gas. They can't sell it with profit to Russians, so selling it to Europe is very important to them.

Ps. I've never noticed the cut off though ( Belgium) and wasn't aware. So I think it's not that big of a threat.

Re: How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)

#135

Post by surewhynat »

Const-me wrote: post #125
surewhynat wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, it doesn't pass your smell test... If there was another referendum today, and the people were given an option today, what do you think they would vote for? You never hear from Crimeans complaining about the referendum result in any way. Those people dodged a huge bullet and they know that. Ukraine is a mess, and perhaps one day when the fighting in Ukraine ends, when the corruption ends, someone should ask thos…

> If there was another referendum today, and the people were given an option today, what do you think they would vote for? Depends on how you define “the people”. Are you going to ask Russians who moved to Crimea after the annexation? Are you going to ask Ukrainians who were unhappy with the shenanigans, and fled their homeland? > You never hear from Crimeans complaining about the referendum result in any way. Lack o…

You're seriously just arguing for the sake of arguing and it's absurd.

Sure, I will clarify what I meant to you. Ask the same people that lived in Crimea at the time the original referendum took place.

>Lack of complains can’t be interpreted as a sign as support, because many people were imprisoned, tortured, and/or killed for such complains:

Lots of footage in Crimea during that time. There were no protests against the referendum. Vice News was filming the whole thing, along with other members of the press. No one was tortured to join Russia as you say. There was a vote, with some minorities that were upset by the outcome.

Economically speaking the people of Crimea caught a huge break. Ukraine has to realize that it needs to work with all neighbours. Look to countries that are successful by example. Do you see France boycotting Germany? Do you see China boycotting Japan? Fighting is the problem. Not listening to your people is the problem. Using scapegoats and boogymen instead of fighting internal corruption is the problem. Ignoring economic development is the problem.

Re: How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)

#136

Post by sudoaza »

Niten wrote: post #127
sudoaza wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As recently as last year a USA backed coup removed the president elected by more than 50% in Bolivia because they nationalized gas and were exploiting lithium themselves.

No. Evo Morales is a would-be dictator who ignored term limits and rigged an election to stay in power. He was forced out of power because the Bolivian army refused to kill Bolivian people to suppress protests against him. The facts to counter the propaganda: - https://www.economist.com/leaders/2019/11/16/was-there-a-cou... - https://www.oas.org/en/media_center/press_release.asp?sCodig...

No. Constitutional Tribunal allowed Evo to participate in the elections because of an international treaty that allows anyone to participate in elections. Also, right wing local magnate Camacho confessed to conspiring with police and military to oust Evo. The OAS is a know USA puppet organization and presented no proof of any wrongdoing in the election.

Confesión Camacho https://www.pagina12.com.ar/238942-luis-fernando-camacho-con...

Convencion Americana sobre Derechos Humanos 23, b) de votar y ser elegidos en elecciones periódicas auténticas http://www.oas.org/dil/esp/tratados_B-32_Convencion_American...

Re: How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)

#137

Post by JoBrad »

NicoJuicy wrote: post #134
JoBrad wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not exactly a fair comparison, since Russia hasn't had the funding to make any large-scale invasions since then. However they were more than happy to cut off oil to Europe just a few years ago, invade Ukraine, and generally act in a belligerent way toward several different countries in an effort to destabilize their neighbors.

And that is insanely stupid. Russia doesn't profit from war, but by selling gas. They can't sell it with profit to Russians, so selling it to Europe is very important to them. Ps. I've never noticed the cut off though ( Belgium) and wasn't aware. So I think it's not that big of a threat.

Indeed, Gazprom lost over $1 billion as a result of the shutdown.

I’m not really sure why I was downvoted before: the actions here targeted Ukraine, but impacted several countries in Europe. Perhaps someone disagrees with me, but that’s not sufficient for a downvote, as I understand it.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia%E2%80%93Ukraine_gas_d...

http://www.worldpress.org/Europe/3307.cfm

Re: How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)

#138

Post by iknowalot »

forgetfulusr wrote: post #111
Yizahi wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can and should discuss reasons which led to current state of the world but there is nothing ambiguous about Iran, China and Russia being bad guys today. No need to put it in quotes. They are indiscriminately killing people in tens of thousands, annexing neighbor territories and in general maintain inhuman totalitarian regimes. And this happens today.

and you can say the same about the US. You don't have to repeat it all over the thread. we should stop looking at everything as black and white. Lets discuss reason why it ia in the current state. Would Iran be in this position today if we hadn't tried to install our democracy to them back in the 50s?

Stealing oil from the Iranian people was/is the priority. Just like stealing lithium from the Bolivian people is.

Re: How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)

#139

Post by NicoJuicy »

JoBrad wrote: post #137
NicoJuicy wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that is insanely stupid. Russia doesn't profit from war, but by selling gas. They can't sell it with profit to Russians, so selling it to Europe is very important to them. Ps. I've never noticed the cut off though ( Belgium) and wasn't aware. So I think it's not that big of a threat.

Indeed, Gazprom lost over $1 billion as a result of the shutdown. I’m not really sure why I was downvoted before: the actions here targeted Ukraine, but impacted several countries in Europe. Perhaps someone disagrees with me, but that’s not sufficient for a downvote, as I understand it. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia%E2%80%93Ukraine_gas_d... http://www.worldpress.org/Europe/3307.cfm

I got downvoted too, some commie trolls probably.

If they don't give a reaction, I don't care ;)

Re: How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)

#140

Post by mrep »

jessaustin wrote: post #89
viraptor wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A US-Iran war would almost certainly result in a democratic Iran Where does that certainty come from? It's not like the US is known for finishing wars recently.

The last war USA "won" was WWII. For all that we spend on it, and for as many innocents as it destroys, our military cannot accomplish objectives that benefit the national interest. Which isn't surprising, because it has been optimized to waste resources, not to win.

In what way do you consider the gulf war a failure?
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