Tech giants sued over deaths of children who mine cobalt • Hacker News Board

Re: Tech giants sued over deaths of children who mine cobalt

#131

Post by celticmusic » Wed, Dec 18, 2019, 4:29 PM UTC

FussyZeus wrote: post #117

solidasparagus wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What good do you think a receipt is in that part of the world? Of course they get a certificate of conflict-free production. And if you have a couple bucks in the DRC/Rwanda, you can get one too! Look at diamonds, gold and coltan as useful precedents that show how buyer-side pressure will not improve things unless the buyers choose to stop using the minerals altogether.

> unless the buyers choose to stop using the minerals altogether. BINGO. That's what you do. If the ass end of Mogadishu can't provide the minerals without using exploitative labor practices, THEN DON'T BUY FROM THE ASS END OF MOGADISHU. And if that means an iPhone costs $200 more then that's what it fucking means, because no iPhone is worth it's weight in human suffering to have.

seriously. How the fuck are people's moral compass so off? I understand reality is reality, but there are some things that should not be, and for slightly cheaper electronics of all things?

fuck that.

Re: Tech giants sued over deaths of children who mine cobalt

#132

Post by solidasparagus » Wed, Dec 18, 2019, 4:29 PM UTC

mcv wrote: post #123

solidasparagus wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think this makes much sense. The mineral supply chain in that part of the world is ridiculously hard to track. Even when you stop buying directly from the DRC, the minerals flow over the borders (see how Rwandan coltan exports jumped when people stopped buying DRC 'conflict' coltan). That part of the DRC is basically beyond the reach of the Congolese government and the bordering countries have been waging pro…

It being hard to track is no excuse. We shouldn't be buying products from such abusive practices. We banned slavery, child labour and other abusive practices in our own countries, but by allowing the imports of such products from other countries, we're still indirectly making use of slavery and child labour. Recently I heard that every person in a wealthy country effectively makes use of two slaves this way. So these…

I don't disagree, but if we want to actually help, we need to work with the world the way it is, not the way we wish it was. Moral grandstanding helps us feel good more than it helps the people who are actually suffering.

There will always be uncertainty about the supply chain. That's the nature of the mineral trade AFAIK.

Re: Tech giants sued over deaths of children who mine cobalt

#133

Post by yters » Wed, Dec 18, 2019, 4:33 PM UTC

solidasparagus wrote: post #120

FussyZeus wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> unless the buyers choose to stop using the minerals altogether. BINGO. That's what you do. If the ass end of Mogadishu can't provide the minerals without using exploitative labor practices, THEN DON'T BUY FROM THE ASS END OF MOGADISHU. And if that means an iPhone costs $200 more then that's what it fucking means, because no iPhone is worth it's weight in human suffering to have.

This is one of those feel-good solutions that lets us feel superior but doesn't actually help the people suffering. Demand is not going anywhere. You're also insultingly wrong with your geography.

The 'someone will do it anyway' defense is not morally legitimate. Just because everyone else is doing it, does not make the action ok.

Luke 17:1 Jesus said to his disciples: "Things that cause people to stumble are bound to come, but woe to anyone through whom they come."

Re: Tech giants sued over deaths of children who mine cobalt

#134

Post by SkyBelow » Wed, Dec 18, 2019, 4:33 PM UTC

yibg wrote: post #53

celticmusic wrote: post #31

Then the law needs to change. It's unconscionable for this to be happening. You make the buyers of that cobalt start caring, you'll make the producers of that cobalt start caring.

Why stop at the direct buyer then? Why not make the end consumer liable too? Make them care, you make the buyers of that cobalt start caring even more right? Heck why don’t we just extend liability down to the end of the chain for everything?

I agree. When a child is harmed to make a product, everyone involved in creating that incentive should be held responsible. Doing so will strongly change society to stop such harms of children.

Re: Tech giants sued over deaths of children who mine cobalt

#135

Post by Giornito » Wed, Dec 18, 2019, 4:34 PM UTC

celticmusic wrote: post #31

Then the law needs to change. It's unconscionable for this to be happening. You make the buyers of that cobalt start caring, you'll make the producers of that cobalt start caring.

How many nations are interested in cutting the middleman? How many nations' officials would like to see corruption stop? How many people would prefer to work under dismal conditions as opposed to not having a job? If we are going to blame the the corporation purchasing the goods, we also need to blame ourselves for not doing our very best to source our purchase choices either.

Re: Tech giants sued over deaths of children who mine cobalt

#136

Post by soared » Wed, Dec 18, 2019, 4:34 PM UTC

pnako wrote: post #60

gwbas1c wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You see, two-thirds of the global supply of cobalt comes from the Congo. So already, right there, you cannot avoid Congolese cobalt.

You could ban/sanction Congolese cobalt; this would increase prices in the short run, while other producing countries adjust supply.

Adjusting the supply of cobalt in a country isn't something thats easily adjusted.

Re: Tech giants sued over deaths of children who mine cobalt

#137

Post by solidasparagus » Wed, Dec 18, 2019, 4:34 PM UTC

FussyZeus wrote: post #125

solidasparagus wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is one of those feel-good solutions that lets us feel superior but doesn't actually help the people suffering. Demand is not going anywhere. You're also insultingly wrong with your geography.

> This is one of those feel-good solutions that lets us feel superior but doesn't actually help the people suffering. So because we can't fix their situation for them, we're allowed to actively make it worse? This is such a nonsense point of view. Exploitative industry is not like regular industry. This is not a rising tide that lifts all boats, this is enriching one or two psychopathic monsters at the expense of the…

It's just unrealistic. Here's a challenge - cut cobalt out of your life. I'll bet you can't.

Until you can do that, offering 'stop buying' as a solution is a waste of time.

Re: Tech giants sued over deaths of children who mine cobalt

#138

Post by celticmusic » Wed, Dec 18, 2019, 4:35 PM UTC

solidasparagus wrote: post #132

mcv wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It being hard to track is no excuse. We shouldn't be buying products from such abusive practices. We banned slavery, child labour and other abusive practices in our own countries, but by allowing the imports of such products from other countries, we're still indirectly making use of slavery and child labour. Recently I heard that every person in a wealthy country effectively makes use of two slaves this way. So these…

I don't disagree, but if we want to actually help, we need to work with the world the way it is, not the way we wish it was. Moral grandstanding helps us feel good more than it helps the people who are actually suffering. There will always be uncertainty about the supply chain. That's the nature of the mineral trade AFAIK.

taking the stance that the exploitation of children is unacceptable and punishing anyone who does work with those who exploit children is not moral grandstanding.

Re: Tech giants sued over deaths of children who mine cobalt

#139

Post by yters » Wed, Dec 18, 2019, 4:35 PM UTC

naravara wrote: post #112

FussyZeus wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They know enough to get the damn cobalt. They can know more if they want to, or, more likely, not do business with the sort of shady ass organizations who use child labor specifically because they can't get the documentation. I really don't understand this "that's just the way it is" thinking when it comes to corporations doing shady shit overseas. If I went to my DMV and I said "I need to register this car" and had…

>They can know more if they want to Sure they could. They would basically need to set up a modern version of the East India Trading Company, build themselves a mercenary army, and go in there and set up a proxy government that adheres to whatever regulatory policies they want to define. We called that "colonialism" the last time around though, and most of the countries it happened to were not fans.

The problem with colonialism is exploitation of the people, not the setting up of a just government. I'm in favor of Western countries coming in and setting up a just government, even if there is a profit motive involved. It at least is much better than a constant war torn and corrupt environment.

Re: Tech giants sued over deaths of children who mine cobalt

#140

Post by overthemoon » Wed, Dec 18, 2019, 4:35 PM UTC

krupan wrote: post #63

WilliamEdward wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uh, yes? You can force millions of consumers to stop buying things or a single company to stop producing them. Which one is easier?

I mean, it's not just one company, is it? But it is less than than millions, so your point probably still stands. Forcing anyone to do anything is pretty hard though. The U.S. government can lean on U.S. companies, but will that really save the child miners? Will they all suddenly not be forced into this type of labor if the U.S. companies stop using their services? Those kids will suddenly all be enrolled in school…

I feel the same when I think about how bleak this all is, but this could be one part of a multipart solution. No, it's not going to magically fix everything wrong with the global economy. But we have to think about things like corporate responsibility and legal consequences for companies that use this material. I suppose I bear some responsibility for not fully researching the mineral sources of each piece of electronics I buy, but the simple act of meeting consumer demand is not morally neutral. Putting legal pressure on companies to not use material mined by children could be helpful (with the usual caveat wrt the devil & details.)