Apple’s Activation Lock Will Make It Difficult to Refurbish Macs • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple’s Activation Lock Will Make It Difficult to Refurbish Macs

#131

Post by dwild » Thu, Dec 05, 2019, 4:04 PM UTC

nkrisc wrote: post #53

> “People don’t steal a phone to then go run and drop it off at their local recycling center,” he quips. And smartphone thefts have plummeted over the last several years, so stolen phones are becoming less of a problem in the first place. And this excerpt links to this article: https://www.sfchronicle.com/crime/article/DA-Gasc-n-says-SF-... Which mentions: > Smartphone robberies have plunged 50 percent in the past th…

> But they plummeted because of Activation Lock and similar features.

Activation Lock != kill switches

A kill switch is a switch. It's an action. The activation lock is always there, the action is required to remove it, not to kill it.

Kill switches are fine, because then the issue only happens when it's actually stolen.

Activation lock aren't fine because it also happens when it has been sold.

Re: Apple’s Activation Lock Will Make It Difficult to Refurbish Macs

#132

Post by Gorbzel » Thu, Dec 05, 2019, 4:09 PM UTC

lonelappde wrote: post #121

Gorbzel wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is Apple required to act as law enforcement? Moreso, even if they could, why as consumers and technicians should we want them to? HNers go on and on about big brother Cupertino all the time, but ooh some (well intentioned but misguided) refurb/recycling shop writes an article and all of a sudden critical thinking goes out the window.

Apple is inserting itself as law enforcement. That's what the OP is about. So they should do it right. Also, please refrain from snide remarks, per HN commenting guidelines. Let your arguments stand on their merits.

Apple is not inserting itself as law enforcement, nor does your comment provide any justification as for why you think that'd be the case here.

Now, I could point out that absent any rationale, your comment fails to make the conversation "more thoughtful and substantive", as requested per HN commenting guidelines. However, I'd also remind everyone that HN isn't moderated by replying to comments you feel break the guidelines. Quite the opposite: "don't feed egregious comments by replying," if you really believe a comment is that bad then flag it.

However, said guidelines also remind us that critical comments are teaching moments and can be inherently good. Wit is frequently a valuable component in criticism, and there's a different between wit and mean-spirited snark. Thus, we're left with maybe the most important guideline: Assume good faith. I genuinely believe the article OP is well-intentioned, and was hoping the comment parent would provide some additional justification or perhaps reflection based on the distinction between good ideas and BigTech overreach. Instead, meta-commentary.

Regardless, have a good day.

Re: Apple’s Activation Lock Will Make It Difficult to Refurbish Macs

#133

Post by AnthonyMouse » Thu, Dec 05, 2019, 4:16 PM UTC

scarface74 wrote: post #61

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not especially shocking that the people doing repairs are the people talking about repairability. And you're taking it from the perspective of someone buying a new device from Apple who doesn't care about anybody else. Consider the perspective of a low income person who would otherwise buy a refurbished phone which will now be unavailable or more expensive, or the environmental perspective of having to manufactu…

No, that person would be able buy a refurbished phone from a source like Gazelle that insures that the rightful owner has deactivated the phone and knows that it isn’t stolen.

There are a zillion phones that come to be refurbished because they originally had corporate owners. The IT department issues new phones and ends up with a giant pile of old phones, many of which are damaged, which aren't worth their time to sort out and resell, so they get thrown on a pallet and go in bulk to an electronics recycler.

The recycler sorts the phones from the PCs from the laser printers and the phones go to a company that refurbishes phones. Now they've got a thousand iPhones from a dozen companies, legally-obtained, which are locked to the personal Apple account of some salesman three deep in the supply chain and they don't even know which specific company they're from, much less which salesman.

So none of those phones can be refurbished, that person can't buy them, and the remaining phones they could buy -- which necessarily can't go to as many people as the larger number of phones -- cost more as a result of supply and demand.

Re: Apple’s Activation Lock Will Make It Difficult to Refurbish Macs

#134

Post by mrtksn » Thu, Dec 05, 2019, 4:20 PM UTC

dwild wrote: post #128

mrtksn wrote: post #13

I am a big fan of iFixit and dig their teardowns just as much as the device releases themselves but their "Companies should prioritize on ease of repair even if it makes the devices less portable and less secure" narrative flips me. I never, ever buy devices for repair purposes or to resell them without bothering to do a factory re-set. The ideal device is one that doesn't need a repair and I do not accept for my dev…

> The whole "this is garbage and this company should make this in a way that we like" is really annoying when it is written in an authoritative tone and rallies a mob. Don't your whole comment do the same? They are giving their opinion based on their preference. For sure it will be bias toward their goal, just like you want them to stop, so that your goal, keeping the statu quo, win. I prefer repairability because I…

Not at all, these are products that I paid for. They were made for me in order to take my money, I have all the rights for strong opinions because of these transactions.

The repair shops are 3rd parties that are trying to inject themselves in the transaction pretending to be on my side when they are actually irrelevant. They advocate for thicker less secure products so that their margins increase if they win my business.

It's simply not true that the devices are not repairable, the issue is that repairing is low margin business. What they want is to have a low touch component business.

Re: Apple’s Activation Lock Will Make It Difficult to Refurbish Macs

#135

Post by sschueller » Thu, Dec 05, 2019, 4:36 PM UTC

crazygringo wrote: post #5

I'm entirely on Apple's side here. It makes me very happy, as a consumer, knowing that if someone steals my phone, they can't get any value out of it. I don't want them to be able to sell it to a refurbisher for cash. And I don't want them to be able to do it with my laptop either. And for refurbishers, it's not hard to make it an obvious required step for anyone looking to sell their own legitimately-owned phone. Yo…

Apple doesn't care if your device gets stolen. This is to prevent 3rd party repairs and refurbishment.

A stolen device has zero effect on apple's profits, but a repaired reused device does.

The sad thing is that others copy such "features" and in the end you will not be able to install or use a device that isn't "safe". How long until a democracy like the US or EU will dictate what is allowed on a device?1984 is coming and we are thinking it's a good thing because we can have a bit more "safety".

Re: Apple’s Activation Lock Will Make It Difficult to Refurbish Macs

#136

Post by sschueller » Thu, Dec 05, 2019, 4:40 PM UTC

repler wrote: post #54

There’s a reason why the ‘98 Honda Civic and ‘97 Honda Accord are the most stolen cars to this day. Anti-theft features largely work very well. Removing the anti-theft features from very expensive phones is going to be a non-starter for the vast majority of people.

I thought the primary reason is the high resale value while also being extremely common. It also blends in well with traffic unlike a Ferrari.

Re: Apple’s Activation Lock Will Make It Difficult to Refurbish Macs

#137

Post by shkkmo » Thu, Dec 05, 2019, 5:01 PM UTC

mvanbaak wrote: post #116

shkkmo wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not if the bypass requires a cryptographicly signed verification by Apple that the device was not reported stolen.

This still leaves a window where it can be abused. If i get robbed it will take some time before i can enter another system to login to icloud and mark my phone/macbook as stolen.

Obviously there can be a delay, are you commenting in a charitable manner or merely being obtuse for fun?

Re: Apple’s Activation Lock Will Make It Difficult to Refurbish Macs

#138

Post by shkkmo » Thu, Dec 05, 2019, 5:06 PM UTC

soraminazuki wrote: post #103

shkkmo wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is why a system that allows recyclers to verify if a device was stolen and return stolen devices and get locked non-stolen devices would be good?

Or maybe recyclers should verify that the devices they get are unlocked before asking Apple to insert security backdoors.

How would that help people whose devices were stolen? What would be the "backdoor" of allowing recyclers to prompt users to remotely unlock or authorize apple to issue a signed unlocking code for that particular device?

Based on the anecdotal commentary, it seems like many recyclers and refurbishers do attempt to educate users that devices should be unlocked. It also seems like this doesn't always happen for sundry reasons so there is still a lot of waste.

Re: Apple’s Activation Lock Will Make It Difficult to Refurbish Macs

#139

Post by dwild » Thu, Dec 05, 2019, 6:04 PM UTC

mrtksn wrote: post #134

dwild wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The whole "this is garbage and this company should make this in a way that we like" is really annoying when it is written in an authoritative tone and rallies a mob. Don't your whole comment do the same? They are giving their opinion based on their preference. For sure it will be bias toward their goal, just like you want them to stop, so that your goal, keeping the statu quo, win. I prefer repairability because I…

Not at all, these are products that I paid for. They were made for me in order to take my money, I have all the rights for strong opinions because of these transactions. The repair shops are 3rd parties that are trying to inject themselves in the transaction pretending to be on my side when they are actually irrelevant. They advocate for thicker less secure products so that their margins increase if they win my busin…

>They advocate for thicker less secure products so that their margins increase if they win my business.

They advocate with me (a customer) for a more repairable product. Just like Apple advocate with you for a less repairable product.

They are also the trillion dollars company against a billion dollars industry... seems like you are with the one expert in increasing margins.

> It's simply not true that the devices are not repairable, the issue is that repairing is low margin business.

No one's arguing that they aren't repairable, we are arguing that they makes them harder to repair. Why do your comment keep being that dishonest.

Re: Apple’s Activation Lock Will Make It Difficult to Refurbish Macs

#140

Post by protomyth » Thu, Dec 05, 2019, 6:15 PM UTC

scarface74 wrote: post #110

protomyth wrote: post #39

Well, I'm getting a little sick of Apple locking the actual owner of the device out and then telling us to go talk to the phone company who has no clue what Apple is talking about then fax in some documents that might or might not get Apple to unlock the device. The thought of this psychosis being brought to the Mac side of the house is just painful. I can only imagine how a non-technical person feels when their phon…

How is Apple locking the owner of the phone out?

Wish I knew the root cause. It's happened a number of times and passcodes and biometrics don't work and they have receipts. The phone is just locked. I assume there was a change made that they didn't understand or they just put the wrong code in. I just cannot chalk it ALL up to user problems given we hit the half-dozen point.