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Hospitals are a weak spot in U.S. cybersecurity

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Re: Hospitals are a weak spot in U.S. cybersecurity

#131
post #128
post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if there was an open source EMR? *nix backend with browser interface. The huge amount of money saved could pay for support, customisation and implementation. Perhaps I’m being naive, but a system where the institution has more ownership would go down well I think. We are about to get an Epic EMR and all the clinical staff are basically expecting a catastrophe.

The VA's old system (VistA) is that open source solution - but other hospitals didn't want to use or buy it. I think the EMR industry is driven more by safety, liability, and revenue for hospitals (in that order) than by patient/physician desired features or security. It's also difficult to build tooling that interconnects across all of the medical specialties - and with the amount of customization that some provider…

You could look at this from a couple of angles. From the healthcare business side, it's controlling costs, plus either regulatory compliance or revenue support (e.g., through provider lock-in). From the tech side, it's whether something developed 'in house' can be 'sold' to the private market: the economics about government institutions 'crowding out' private ventures argues that publicly funded innovations should not deny private profit opportunities. In the public sector this is controlled with ethics regulations that prevent organizations (and individuals) from benefiting from that effort: they legally cannot market or sell that work _at all_. With an open-source system, it's (business) risk management and (provider) lock-in concerns. Proprietary systems are used to satisfy both. Safety risks arising from cybersecurity concerns are almost always chained to something already managed by existing processes with an insurer at the end of the line.

Re: Hospitals are a weak spot in U.S. cybersecurity

#132
post #47

Healthcare CIO here. This is true. Healthcare is still using paper fax. It has a 30 year old data interchange format that no one really supports because it's more profitable to lock in customers to your EMR. Healthcare is HORRIBLE about upgrading anything, at changing processes, and technological progress in general. Healthcare is VERY backwards from a tech standpoint. Another problem is that EVERYTHING is custom, we…

Let's build it in MUMPS, a 51 year old language that originated on the PDP7

It’s funny. You got Ruby guys out here who think every problem can be solved with a new DSL, and you guys actually have a DSL and want to get rid of it! Maybe the grass is always greener on the other side?

Nah. C

Also traces its roots to the PDP7 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C_(programming_language)#Early...

Re: Hospitals are a weak spot in U.S. cybersecurity

#133
post #128
post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if there was an open source EMR? *nix backend with browser interface. The huge amount of money saved could pay for support, customisation and implementation. Perhaps I’m being naive, but a system where the institution has more ownership would go down well I think. We are about to get an Epic EMR and all the clinical staff are basically expecting a catastrophe.

The VA's old system (VistA) is that open source solution - but other hospitals didn't want to use or buy it. I think the EMR industry is driven more by safety, liability, and revenue for hospitals (in that order) than by patient/physician desired features or security. It's also difficult to build tooling that interconnects across all of the medical specialties - and with the amount of customization that some provider…

Is VistA usable by sole practitioners?

Re: Hospitals are a weak spot in U.S. cybersecurity

#134
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People need to stop hating on fax. Hospitals still use fax because it is a much more punishable crime to tap phone lines which requires physical access, as opposed to a server that could be infected from a hacker halfway across the world.

Fax is odd, it was a fantastic thing when it first came about, and it has some desirable properties. - It's direct point to point communication (over a network) - The transport network is dedicated and not open to anyone and covered by quite strong laws in many countries - It's easy to see the history of communications - It's easy to see if the other end successfully received something - It's relatively standardized…

All these issues could easily be resolved on the internet if someone bothered a bit. Keep a whitelist of connections, private-public key communication (you can exchange keys off internet if needed), receive and read confirmation etc. It's not internet's fault that some idiot is storing passwords in plaintext and/or sending them over unencrypted connections

Re: Hospitals are a weak spot in U.S. cybersecurity

#135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does Epic use MUMPS? I know a lot of professional nurses and the rancor around Epic is off the charts.

Backend is all MUMPS. Frontend was for a long time coded in Visual Basic 6. VB6/MUMPS stack is... not ergonomic to code in. Epic is easy to hate (it's everywhere), and for good reason. However, the alternatives are not obviously better unless there's been some radical innovation. There are definitely systems designed for a particular piece of a hospital (ex, ER, or labs, etc) that are probably better than Epic is, bu…

Did anyone think to make languages that compile to those? I imagine that it would make an incredible amount of sense for Epic, at its scale, to write the equivalent of Typescript to reduce errors and improve productivity. Or do they just not have any sort of dev tools/research department?

Re: Hospitals are a weak spot in U.S. cybersecurity

#136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does Epic use MUMPS? I know a lot of professional nurses and the rancor around Epic is off the charts.

Backend is all MUMPS. Frontend was for a long time coded in Visual Basic 6. VB6/MUMPS stack is... not ergonomic to code in. Epic is easy to hate (it's everywhere), and for good reason. However, the alternatives are not obviously better unless there's been some radical innovation. There are definitely systems designed for a particular piece of a hospital (ex, ER, or labs, etc) that are probably better than Epic is, bu…

> VB6/MUMPS stack

That sounds like a medical condition.

And after looking into the MUMPS language, I can see why they named it after a disease!

Re: Hospitals are a weak spot in U.S. cybersecurity

#137
post #126
post #47

Healthcare CIO here. This is true. Healthcare is still using paper fax. It has a 30 year old data interchange format that no one really supports because it's more profitable to lock in customers to your EMR. Healthcare is HORRIBLE about upgrading anything, at changing processes, and technological progress in general. Healthcare is VERY backwards from a tech standpoint. Another problem is that EVERYTHING is custom, we…

What if there was an open source EMR? *nix backend with browser interface. The huge amount of money saved could pay for support, customisation and implementation. Perhaps I’m being naive, but a system where the institution has more ownership would go down well I think. We are about to get an Epic EMR and all the clinical staff are basically expecting a catastrophe.

Like GNU Health?

- https://www.gnuhealth.org/#/download/projects

- https://savannah.gnu.org/projects/health

- https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/GNU_Health

Can't tell if it's any good, though I hear it's been used in some medical facilities around the world.

Re: Hospitals are a weak spot in U.S. cybersecurity

#138
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cyber security standards are in place to make the process easier to understand for the non-technical executives, who approve the budgets. Without the standards the executives don’t know who they should believe, and invariably they believe the guy who sounds and acts like themselves, which means he knows as much about cyber security as the executives. If you know what you are doing regarding cyber security, AND you ar…

I think they are intended to be helpful, but they are adopted as CYA that have the side benefit of improving security.

> that have the side benefit of improving security

Sometimes. Other times they have the side effect of worsening security, as line employees have to deal with bullshit "security" rules and invent undocumented, untracked workarounds just to be able to do their jobs at all.

Re: Hospitals are a weak spot in U.S. cybersecurity

#139
post #55
post #47

Healthcare CIO here. This is true. Healthcare is still using paper fax. It has a 30 year old data interchange format that no one really supports because it's more profitable to lock in customers to your EMR. Healthcare is HORRIBLE about upgrading anything, at changing processes, and technological progress in general. Healthcare is VERY backwards from a tech standpoint. Another problem is that EVERYTHING is custom, we…

I involved in building 2 systems for healthcare: Patient privacy monitoring (ensure no one peeks into patient records inappropriately) and medication analytics platform (monitors suspicious and anomalous activity related to drugs and opioids diversion). This of course deals with multitude of different systems, EMR's, data formats, legacy-everything etc, but the GREAT about this whole thing - is opportunity. No one re…

re: privacy monitoring

I prototyped an access logger based on tamper evident logs, which used rolling hash codes. Precursor to this blockchain mania.

re: visibility

I'm still bullish on the Translucent Database thesis. TLDR: Use the password salt + hash technique to encrypt data at rest at the record level.

--

Source: Designed, implemented, supported 5 regional healthcare exchanges. eg Brooklyn Health Information Exchange (BHIX): https://www.itnonline.com/content/medplus-implement-clinical...

Re: Hospitals are a weak spot in U.S. cybersecurity

#140
post #47

Healthcare CIO here. This is true. Healthcare is still using paper fax. It has a 30 year old data interchange format that no one really supports because it's more profitable to lock in customers to your EMR. Healthcare is HORRIBLE about upgrading anything, at changing processes, and technological progress in general. Healthcare is VERY backwards from a tech standpoint. Another problem is that EVERYTHING is custom, we…

Despite the awesomeness of our tech stack and execution, our customers (hospitals) were completely fleeced by our sales and project management teams.

During the mid aughts, hospitals simply didn't have the experience to defend against predatory consultancies.

Hopefully that situation has improved with the addition of people like you.

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