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Chicago book returns surge 240% after city eliminates fines

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Re: Chicago book returns surge 240% after city eliminates fines

#131

Post by vkizl »

moate wrote: post #122
vkizl wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being poor prevents you from returning books in time.

Good morning! What is your point? Of course we all understand that being poor doesn't (directly) mean you can't return books. I could write a whole essay about how being poor could indirectly make it harder to return books (less free time from working, less access to easy transportation, etc) but that's not really a point worth making, and I don't think it would change your mind on...whatever it is you're trying to b…

My point is that I don't understand why the GP brought up the poor, which are kind of a wild card ("won't someone think of the poor???"), when they are perfectly capable of returning books in time.

Re: Chicago book returns surge 240% after city eliminates fines

#132

Post by BoorishBears »

lr4444lr wrote: post #111
BoorishBears wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in a city. You're describing a vast minority of stores in the US, I don't know who you're trying to fool... Sure you can go to a some neighborhoods and find stuff under lock and key and aggressive security, but the vast majorities of stores do not rely on that (in other words, the system as a whole does not rely on that, even if there are special cases for specific stores) You're waxing poetic about rioting an…

If you live in a city and have looked into the phenomenon of urban "food deserts", you'd know that it is affected in significant part by the low per store margin of a grocery store being eaten by security and shoplifting costs. The OP may be somewhat hyperbolic, but he's not all wrong.

Yeah... you're pretty much proving my point with a fact that is not at all new to me

In areas where people are living on the extremes of society and in poverty (most people in food deserts are from low-income families) they're driven to go against a social norm (not stealing), and that act is enough to drive out stores because of razor thin margins, and they close.

That literally shows LP is not what's keeping stores open, it's the people choosing not to steal.

The only difference affecting shrinkage between the stores that close, and the stores that stay open is the people shopping in them. As soon as the people start to steal, the store can't literally can't afford matching increases in LP to counteract it, and closes.

If even a minor percentage more people decided to steal, many stores would literally not work.

Re: Chicago book returns surge 240% after city eliminates fines

#133

Post by OrangeMango »

mumblemumble wrote: post #36
ComputerGuru wrote: post #3

I honestly think it is the novelty of suddenly not having fines rather than the actual not having of fines. IMHO (most) people don’t not return books when they’re a day or a week late because of fines. Ultimately, I believe it’s too early to draw any conclusions beyond observing the number of books returned for now . It will certainly be interesting to see where the steady state will wind up, though. (I’m a CPL membe…

All this is fair, but, at the same time, Chicago is far from the first library system to do this. It's just the largest. And it seems quite likely that it'll work out in Chicago the same way it has elsewhere. Other libraries are seeing that the benefits last. You're maybe minimizing what the fines can amount to. As a parent of small children, I can say from experience that a load of books from the children's library,…

> I used to live about 1/2 hour away from the nearest branch (Sulzer)

There are 81 branch libraries and you can return a book to any of them (you also can have your book reservations delivered to any branch as well).

Sulzer has something like 5 branches within a 3 miles radius. As you get to the edges of the city, the number of nearby branches decreases (as you would expect). If you have no car and have to pay individually for bus rides, this starts to appear quite burdensome. Actually, having a car might not help so much because few branches have free parking lots.

I frequently drop books off for my kids because I work downtown and can head over at lunch (there is a place to get good cubano sandwiches across the street, so big bonus!). I doubt many people on the south and west sides have that luxury.

Re: Chicago book returns surge 240% after city eliminates fines

#134

Post by chr1 »

BoorishBears wrote: post #54
robbrown451 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm having a bit of trouble determining if that was a reply to my comment. My only point was that if things are optional to pay for, lots of people will take the thing, and not pay. That's why the grocery store hires cashiers, rather than being on the honor system.

That's not why cashiers are there. The cashier is there for when you decide to pay for your goods. If you try and walk out with them, the cashier will not stop you. For legal reasons, even the security probably won't touch you. The reason most people who don't steal isn't the punishment, it's because they don't want to steal. Likewise, removing the fine doesn't make a late book not late. People do not have some inher…

> People do not have some inherent want to break social conventions

Unfortunately in some places "taking what can be taken" is a social convention. I know people who are saying: "People in europe are idiots, i can take anything i want from supermarket, and the policemen doesn't even dare to search me, though knows that i have taken something".

Re: Chicago book returns surge 240% after city eliminates fines

#135

Post by paulddraper »

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #115
cryptozeus wrote: post #62

Some of the comments here are surprising. Imo people who come to library to read books want to be a good member of the library. By assuming they will stop returning books due to no fees is just assuming worst of them. I was surprised when my county in California decided to get rid of all the fees. I had 5 books due and all my fees were forgiven. I donated way more to the library just because of this change. I was wor…

It's the medieval mentality, like there is a shortage of paper or something. The amount of it wasted in my office alone could supply every library in town. I'd be happy if a kid stole 10 books from my shelf and read one. The most expensive thing in the world is people that are unemployable, ignorant, need support and vote for the politicians we deserve! There should be like a national policy where kids get paid for r…

Books are valuable and scarce goods.

Something tells me if you opened an online bookstore, you could make a nice little business...

Re: Chicago book returns surge 240% after city eliminates fines

#136

Post by hgoel »

vkizl wrote: post #102
eevilspock wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being rich enables you to return books as late as you want because the fine means little to you, and certainly not whether you can eat or pay the rent.

You also have the option of, you know, returning the book in time so you aren't fined at all.

People aren't perfect, they make mistakes. The difference is that a well off person can afford to correct that mistake by paying the fine, while a poor person is given an incentive to not do so because they can't afford it.

Re: Chicago book returns surge 240% after city eliminates fines

#137

Post by agentdrtran »

knocte wrote: post #48

If no fines, what prevents the people from taking the books and not return them again? Wanting to borrow new books? Ah, fair enough. (Just putting this out loud for people which didn't reach this conclusion yet, it took me a while.) PS: Maybe the real way to fix this is paying a deposit upfront when becoming a member of the library, which is not high price, just the cost of an average book. You'd get this deposit whe…

> paying a deposit upfront when becoming a member of the library

Do you have any idea how many people this would stop from using library services?

Re: Chicago book returns surge 240% after city eliminates fines

#138

Post by smileysteve »

tux1968 wrote: post #95
vkizl wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being poor prevents you from returning books in time.

Being young means you're less likely to be totally responsible yet. Being poor means you're less likely to have parents that are 100% engaged in your library visits.

Small fines seem like a great way to instill a sense of responsibility (while also acting as insurance style payments), especially if your parents already aren't engaged and ensuring you're responsible to duties.

As this the Good Will Hunting quote suggests, in many libraries these fees were small, $1.25 in late fees for a Harvard Education...

Re: Chicago book returns surge 240% after city eliminates fines

#139

Post by cryptozeus »

cryptozeus wrote: post #62

Some of the comments here are surprising. Imo people who come to library to read books want to be a good member of the library. By assuming they will stop returning books due to no fees is just assuming worst of them. I was surprised when my county in California decided to get rid of all the fees. I had 5 books due and all my fees were forgiven. I donated way more to the library just because of this change. I was wor…

On top of all these they have free ebook programs where you can rent a book from your local library for free. They are really doing everything they can to support free materials. Its up to the people now.

Re: Chicago book returns surge 240% after city eliminates fines

#140

Post by moate »

vkizl wrote: post #131
moate wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good morning! What is your point? Of course we all understand that being poor doesn't (directly) mean you can't return books. I could write a whole essay about how being poor could indirectly make it harder to return books (less free time from working, less access to easy transportation, etc) but that's not really a point worth making, and I don't think it would change your mind on...whatever it is you're trying to b…

My point is that I don't understand why the GP brought up the poor, which are kind of a wild card ("won't someone think of the poor???"), when they are perfectly capable of returning books in time.

Oh, this is an easy one! I hope GP doesn't mind me handling this one for him.

GP was bringing some additional clarity to the content of the article and the discussion about it. See the Chicago public library had conducted a study and found that by eliminating late fees, they'd increase traffic and usage of the library system. See they found that poor people and children were less likely to engage the library system once they'd begun accruing fines. The city felt this was a negative, and to address it they changed their policy.

Again, of course they're capable of returning things on time. But the city had found that 1-the fines weren't needed to keep the libraries functioning. 2- the fines had a greater impact on the poor than other patrons, which feels bad.

The poor and their usage behaviors were part of the decision making process, and knowing this may inform the discussion. It's extremely relevant.

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